CPolofVancouver
142596
2854
104
This man is 28-year-old Andrew Finch. On the 28th of December, he was shot by police while answering the door. The reason? An online gaming argument: someone angry over the dispute called the police on him, claiming he'd killed his father & was holding his family hostage. This is called swatting.
The really sad thing is he wasn't even involved in the argument; the person the swatting was aimed at gave out what they though was a fake address.
Just to be clear: if you have ever swatted someone, you're a POS. You are the lowest scum on this planet, & with the increasing militarization of police in the Western world (especially in the USA) there is no way this outcome was surprising. It was not a question of if, but rather of when.
Source: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-42523045
Karkatos
So anyone who is deaf, insane or not English speaking should be shot with the current go by swat rule book? This is sad
Momoiimi
I was threatened with swatting when I streamed on Twitch. They got my parents address. I reported it and got laughed at by the police.
Hickory405
I'm from Wichita KS as well. This guy offered to let me in front of him at Dillons because I only had a soda and he had a kart full. I'm sad
Xeropoint
Wichita resident here as well. I'd seen him around town as well. Such bullshit that this happened.
raindropped
Fuck anyone who uses law enforcement this way.
TheGuyWithTheAnswers
You got it a little wrong, it was to random kids in CoD who got mad at each other and one dude gave a random address to so they could 1/
TheGuyWithTheAnswers
2/2 Meet face to face, but the one receiving the address gave it to a known guy who call swat to the address and getting this dude killed
twominutesforhighsticking
And I doubt it was a fake address. He probably gave an address close to himself so he could watch out the window and see if SWAT showed
twominutesforhighsticking
I think all three are complicit in the death, plus the law enforcement guy who shot the man.
krapmyself
"this was no surprise" is both sad and alarming. Law enforcement officer need to be held to MUCH higher standard than the casual citizen.
irlborat
The lack of suprise i think comes from the fact that SWATting finally killed someone
Treblaine
The standard is as much things like trigger discipline, point a gun at a possible threat with finger on trigger... a twitch away from death.
Treblaine
So the idea of "why did the cop decide to shoot" I don't think they necessarily did make a conscious decision to shoot. But reckless.
StonesOnTheHill
Until the equipment the police needs to do what's expected of them is invented, people will keep dying like this.
PureUnadulteratedBait
It actually already exists. It's a product called "Brain" manufactured by Think For One Fucking Second Before You Shoot Innocent People Inc.
StonesOnTheHill
It takes one second for someone to pull a gun and shoot you. The problem is that people who need to not kill are equipped to kill, (1/2)
PureUnadulteratedBait
That's the risk you take when you become a cop. You shouldn't get to kill people because they naturally flinch when surprised by a full SWAT
PureUnadulteratedBait
team pointing guns at them.
StonesOnTheHill
And the less than lethal options they do have are still too primitive and situational to completely replace them.(2/2)
ToasterDent
What's expected of police is that they not shoot citizens who *might* be a threat. Every action like this reduces respect for police.
StonesOnTheHill
Yeah, but to take the risk to get shot, they need something that can stop bullets and still let them move effectively. (1/2)
StonesOnTheHill
Either that, or they'd need a less than lethal weapon as good at neutralizing people as the lethal ones they have, to reduce fatalities(2/2)
ToasterDent
The US does a bad job of training police to read situations and de-escalate, vs going straight to max control and violence as 1st response.
ToasterDent
I mean, police work is inherently dangerous, that's why cops are respected. Nobody wants cops to die. But it will never be perfectly safe.
StonesOnTheHill
where there's stress, there's mistakes. & as you saw in the 2’nd part of my reply, I believe that better tools could mitigate those mistakes
Orsigno
I'm not sure if it's still like this, but in Iraq, the Army had to hear bullets buzzing past them before they were allowed to return fire.
Treblaine
Even then they often had to hold fire because it may be a friendly unit accidentally shooting at them.
DaierMune
Yep, our soldiers are more reserved about killing than our peace officers.
Srirachachachachachachachacha
Police have good awful training and testing standards. Add some shitty legislation and lack of funding, and you get shit like this.
TheDogEnd
A bigger problem are the citizens who support police absolutely. Usually ppl who, for some reason, don't think they'll be targeted by them.
KillerTofu615
I've had to tell an officer doing a "house call" to get off of my front porch because he was threatening violence by trying to enter my home
Barrett91
I advocate that use of lead bullets is to much power for US police these days, needs rubber slugs and more tazer
irlborat
They need a lethal option, it just shouldn't be their first option
Barrett91
Lethal force allows them to be judge/jury/executioner, it doesn't make sense a cop can kill for peace or self defense, that's not their job
AnthonyDavis1996
Self defense is a right for everyone. I dont see why we would take that right away from the people who are most likely to need it.
Barrett91
Self defense for police should not include lethal force for anything less than a fire fight in progress otherwise they're just mercs
gmoney4321
God this is awful. It was a trend a few years ago, but it died down after a few guys got caught, and got very harsh sentences. Fucking nerds
5xAcademyAwardWinnerKirkLazarus
What a clusterfuck. I think the shooting officer, the guy who made the prank call, and the guy who gave a fake address should all be tried.
irlborat
Just the caller really, fake address dude was a dick but he did nothing illegal as far as I know and the officer is part of a bigger problem
StillWatersAreFullOfMonsters
I've been gaming online for 13+ years and have never given an address, real or fake online in a fight. Why tf would someone??
lazy784
Fake address guy did nothing wrong. In fact, after this event, I'd wouldn't be surprised if more ppl gave out fake addresses. I would.
SadToSay
Why the hell would you give anyone in an online game who you don't know any address?
devtek
I think he dared the guy he was fighting with to swat him or something.
BookieeWookiee
I think if you're going to give out an address use the police station address
Martincardenas76
You're a genius
TheDivineUsersub
If you're giving out someone else's address, it's not a fake fucking address. Someone lives there. When shit hits the fan, that's where -
realargonwolf
He made the address up not knowing it was real. It was fake for all he knew, and he had no reason to suspect that psycho's further actions.
TheDivineUsersub
So it's criminally negligent... Think in terms of traffic law. If my actions lead to an accidental death, it's still manslaughter. -
TheDivineUsersub
- This kid may have ASSUMED it was fake, but that was a poor conclusion given he didn't consider the obvious possibility that it may -
TheDivineUsersub
- shit's going to go. Do not give out addresses that aren't yours, people.
FuckMeThenYou
Also don't demand changes to your local police if this is how they act on phone calls
5xAcademyAwardWinnerKirkLazarus
Fake address guy is an accessory. He knew police would be sent to an innocent man's house. Why did he have to give an address at all?
VeryMoistTowelettes
I'd rather give someone an address than have them actually put in effort to find my real one through my IP address.
blakeatwork
Wow, that's a supposition that you would never be able to prove in court.
lethaldoobie
honestly...who really thinks theyll get cops called on them? dude was probably saying he wanted to fight or something...
IntronautRocksMySocksOff
I agree. Why not just refrain from giving any kind of address though?
yousabasicbitch
Or maybe police shouldn't be frightened pussies
skellington01
If guns weren't so wide spread in America maybe it wouldn't be so scary & dangerous being a cop in America
drsnowbear
Gun have been in America a long time, this shoot first and often mentality is new.
ZoidbergIsGreat
The caller should be charged with murder. The cop was used as a tool and must live with the knowledge of murdering an innocent man.
PoseidonsSister
Where are the tasers? I know it's not the correct action, but a fuck ton better than shooting an innocent.
bushpotato
Rest in peace, dude; I'm so sorry this had to happen... What is our world coming to.
realargonwolf
If you're in full tactical gear, with armored vehicles and holding assault rifles, you can afford to wait and see if he actually has a gun.
realargonwolf
There's no excuse for this, SWAT teams like to play soldier and shoot people.
Prophetbardt
Question from Germany: What are the chances that the police officer who shot him will face serious legal consequences?
hashtagyoureit
Incredibly slim, unfortunately. They just need to say they thought he reached for something.
Geniefromdownunder
I did this once. But I sent a fucking pizza. Not the Damn SWAT team. Guy was shot by the pizza guy....(I joke)
Glassman62
I was Swatted but came home just as cops getting ready to bust in. What are you doing? Uh, you live here? Yes! Uh, wrong house bye.
IHazAFloof
Had cops show up to raid a reported grow op next door in the middle of our Airsoft game. That could have gotten messy. :(
Glassman62
Holding gun looking items and pointing them at each other? Yeah, bad real quick.
IHazAFloof
Yup, in camo too boot. 10 rural acres at the end of a road. Grabbed a clearsoft by the barrel and went to talk to them REAL careful.
HelpfulMasturbationTips
Judging by the comments, it's not gun control or cop control America needs but rather waistband control. This is messed up.
HeroOfCanton1
Baccano2015
The outcome isn't surprising? Being shot by police based on little to no evidence is not surprising? Well I'm sorry but I'm fucking 1/
skellington01
Murcia
Baccano2015
Surprised as fuck! If this isn't gonna be a surprise outcome I honestly don't want to know what you think IS a surprise outcome 2/
preaction
You don't live in the US, do you?
christopherwalkin393
This makes me hurt inside reading about it. I don't see how we haven't regressed as humans if something like this isn't avoidable. Idek
Ihaveafloof
From what I read the officer hasn't really been punished for shooting him. The scum that swatted him has been arrested though.
CPolofVancouver
I should point out he was shot & killed, not wounded.
snomang
Nothing 2 do with the cops not being trained correctly though. Who the fuck goes into a house shooting. What happened to hostage negotiation
Stephandknee
I hope they catch the swatter, and the SWAT team also faces repercussions for shooting and murdering an unarmed person.
Fuzzgoat
The swatter was arrested today.
SpartanStatic
Hopefully the family can also press criminal charges.
baturro
The swatter has been identified, located and arrested.
therealtexan
Cops shoot to kill not wound
Roadbreaker
No. They shoot to stop.
BookieeWookiee
If they shot to stop it would be in the leg
Vaeevictiss
Ahh yea the myth of the leg shot. You know, the one you can bleed out from in under a minute.
GoldenRamoth
They shoot center of mass like any trained individual. Those are kill shots. Meant to stop.
DiabeticDolphin
Cause that's what they are taught, right.
nesurame
Everyone is taught to shoot center-mass. If you shoot to maim, that falls under cruel and unusual punishment.
irlborat
That's what everyone is taught, when you aim a gun at a person you shoot to kill, anything else and a gun was unnecessary
Mechlai
What about blowing out kneecaps? If someone breaks into my house I should be allowed at least that.
irlborat
If you aren't willing to kill the target don't use a gun, use a traumatic device instead
Kountdown
If you're not willing to kill you shouldn't have a gun.
BookieeWookiee
which just farther shows the bs of the us police.. what kidnapper would just answer the door? So bestworst case scenario they shot a hostage
DelumStudios
You would be surprised at the apparent complete randomness of criminal behaviour.
ptMuta
Well at least the police is consistent and shoots the suspects instead of apprehending them ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
kanne31
Further*
Treblaine
Yeah, FARther is when it's increasingly FAR away or you're Luke Skywalker talking about his dad.
tremaursen
Ya, happened in an area where calls like that are rare. Police training wasn't up to snuff, and an innocent guy paid the consequences
coolkidwestern
Drugs dude, drugs make people completely unpredictable, why shoot to kill is the question here
detectiveperalta
You're right the logic of it doesn't make full sense. But at the time, they're operating under the pretense of a deadly hostage situation 1/
detectiveperalta
and the police saw his hands move down to his waist probably thinking he had a gun, and shot him. I'm not saying the police are blameless 2/
detectiveperalta
But if we're going to be assigning blame, the swatter deserves every ounce of shit going his way for fabricating a dangerous situation. /END
detectiveperalta
An article on the situation: https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2017/12/after-swatting-death-in-kansas-25-year-old-arrested-in-los-angeles
Treblaine
My theory: no cop chose to shoot him. They thought he had a gun and pointed their gun at him, finger on trigger. One twitch = bang.
Onfire7
You are correct, he moved his have from above his head...
Xpaqui2
I think you are correct. A tense situation with lack of training to deal with it. But this is what we get with militarised police.
Treblaine
I see no military discipline here. If they had only lever-action rifles (never used by any military) the same would happen.
Onfire7
Actually, he was shot because they told him to put his hands above his head and later he moved them to his waistband. With the report being
Onfire7
That he had already killed someone, they didn't really have a choice but to shoot him...
Xpaqui2
They didn't have a choice!? Nice story. The world is black and white and we don't question any narratives.
AlcoholicsAnonymousBYO
Sure, the official version says so, must be right
ficklampa
The police has released the bodycam from the incident, and also saying that the man that got shot had his hands by his waistband multiple >
ficklampa
> times, even during commands to raise them. Sauce: http://www.kansas.com/news/local/crime/article192244734.html
Bystandr
Has less to do with militarization than how the rules of engagement have changed. Expectation on officers is now to fire when in doubt,
Bystandr
especially where the possibility of other members being killed is high. This is what has to change because some risk must be assumed in
Bystandr
certain actions, and this includes first response to civil incidents. Had the officer been trained to verify a weapon before firing to kill,
Bystandr
there would be less chance of this occurring. Yes, this involves more risk, but it would probably at this point be the path to take towards
Bystandr
saving more life, in general. This type of thing can be an aspect of militarization (more agressive RoE) but it is part along , and not just
Bystandr
militarization, itself. Sorry for the WoT, but I wanted to define the point so you can see the difference.
amypalgreen
The prankster needs to be charged with murder. Set him an example to make sure no one prank calls .
skellington01
Or how about expecting the police to know when it's a prank instead of shooting to kill just in case?
jrntn
Sure. But how about also charging the murderer with murder? Just as a start?
amypalgreen
Thats what i meant
Markuspsyches
They meant the one holding the murder weapon aka the guy that shot the man to death...
voluptuousvixen
What’s most unfortunate is the comments section is quick to blame the police, but not the POS who called in a fake tip about a murderer.
realargonwolf
The caller should be brought up on domestic terrorism charges, but we know the police will get off too easy because they almost always do.
jpparkenbone
You have it backwards. Nobody is talking about him because there is no debate. He clearly should be charged.
HeHeHebieJeebies
Maybe the takeaway here is more training for the police and better pay to afford higher quality than dumb enough to run towards gunshots.
eroso
More training wont help. They likely acted by the book. Gotta re-write that book instead.
skellington01
Maybe more gun control so guns are not EVERYWHERE & in the hands of lunatics who make cops so scared for their lives & trigger happy.
preaction
They are given lots of training. That training creates incidents like these.
buckeyes995
American police get way less training than in other Western countries. Too much training is not the issue
jrntn
They are definitely not given lots of training. They get a couple of months of it. In the civilized world, it takes years
preaction
Here's some of the rhetoric ("training") they get http://www.policemag.com/channel/weapons/articles/2014/09/revisiting-the-21-foot-rule.aspx
preaction
If that's the kind of training they get, it doesn't matter how much of it they get.
TakWriterOfWorlds
Our SOP in Iraq was positive ID of a weapon before firing on someone. I guess in America it’s positive ID of vaguely possible reaching?
Nexus159
A few people think that SOP is a POS, and responsible for a few of their friends' coffins.
TakWriterOfWorlds
Charging a machine gun nest got people killed too. It’s a best practices thing to help ensure better odds of survival for everybody.
aristera
It's, I found an excuse to shoot someone.
JoeMorgue
That's why I hate when I say irresponsible police are "acting like soldiers." They're acting like extras playing soldiers in a M. Bay film.
DavidBrooker
In the philosophy of law, Blackstone's formulation states: "It is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer." 1/n
DavidBrooker
In other words, when determining legal truth we must always balance the weight of evidence against the consequences of being wrong. 2/n
DavidBrooker
It seems in American law enforcement they balance evidence against the consequences of being right. That is absolutely backwards. 3/3
preaction
No, they balance evidence against the population and towards the officer. That's why officers rarely are held to account for these incidents
RepostFromLastWeek
Afaik the average US cops gets less training than what is in the basic training.
TakWriterOfWorlds
Time wise maybe, but having gone through basic and AIT for combat arms, it really isn’t that involved.
AspAspAsp
Because the narrative of any civilian potentially being a lethal quickdraw grandmaster assassin is pushed so aggressively.
DelumStudios
If you add "previously informed that such and such houses are inhabited by armed insurgents", your ROE doesnt change?
TakWriterOfWorlds
ROE? No. But it definitely changes how we would approach the situation.
GooberMonster
2006-2010 was reasonable certainty that you or someelse's life was in danger. I.E. 51% sure. Just explain why you felt threatened.
GooberMonster
EOF (escalation of force) helped substantiate your concern. Shout, show, shove, shoot a warning shot, shoot to kill. You can skip steps.
GooberMonster
PID of a weapon is misleading, meaning we could shoot anyone with a gun and be fine, that's not really accurate.
TakWriterOfWorlds
Very true. I wasn’t trying to imply that just seeing a weapon was a justification, but that simply reaching wasn’t one.
GooberMonster
In of itself no. I also would like to say that not having a weapon does not mean the soldier is outside the ROE.
RedBearAK
Studies show war vet cops are less likely to kill unarmed people. The other cops seem to think this is because the vets are cowards. Insane.
TakWriterOfWorlds
I honestly don’t even know what to say to that. I’m not surprised, but that’s depressing as fuck.
CPolofVancouver
I don't get why so many US PDs have less restraint in suburbs when it comes to firearms than an army in an actual warzone
wingmanofmayhem
Well, for one it shouldn’t have been that restrictive in a war zone.
TakWriterOfWorlds
Nope, that was exactly how it should be.
wingmanofmayhem
Let me guess, you must’ve been reg army?
TakWriterOfWorlds
Nope, Salvation Army. I did two tours as a bell ringer. One on Black Friday and one on Christmas Eve. It was brutal.
UhhhhhNick
Because in the army, they are actually trained. Most police today are handed a gun and sent on their way.
preaction
Look at other posts in this thread. "Comply." "Don't be a threat." These are things people say during an occupation.
preaction
And when those fail "They have a hard job." Yes, it must be hard keeping a population in fear. I feel so sorry for them.
MrHailstone
Soldiers are trained. US Police training seems to be a joke.
Stev757
I would imagine the stricter command structure, better training, and harsher punishments in the military play a part.
preaction
Because an army in an actual warzone could accidentally escalate a conflict, which has repercussions. Police in the US have no repercussions
preaction
Hate to say this, but white people fear non-white people more than they fear police. As long as police keep that going, they're free to kill
VinerialBlumpkin11
Dumbest thing I ever read. I'm white and carry a gun everyday. My biggest fear is that 1 cop who thinks only police should have guns.
preaction
Congratulations. You're not the average person, so hooray for being outlying data.
VinerialBlumpkin11
Also could you be any more racist?
nopost
Not true whatsoever. Police in the US have sparked HUGE protests, riots, and looting by shooting people who may or may not have been guilty
preaction
Does anyone even remember what happened to the LAPD after Rodney King?
preaction
But nobody blames the police for those riots. There are no consequences to the police, only to the rioters and damage caused by the riot.
TakWriterOfWorlds
Yeah, it’s definitely fucked up. Even more fucked up is PDs in the US won the right to legally discriminate against high IQ candidates.
ranger15
Having to pass all the training and tests that police have to do to become certified, you can't be exactly dumb...
TakWriterOfWorlds
They target average IQ/aptitude. So, not stupid, but they turn away smarter people on purpose.
ranger15
What's the point of doing that? I worked a civilian job at a PD a few years back, and all the officers were pretty intelligent...
PanicAtTheCostco
Source for this because I kinda don't believe you
kittiepryde
http://abcnews.go.com/US/court-oks-barring-high-iqs-cops/story?id=95836
flyingdutchfrenchman
... What ? They actually WANT to only hire dumb people ?
cpnbeeb
Yes. A smart person will likely have better scruples and report unsavory behavior. A dumb person is easier to keep in line.
flyingdutchfrenchman
Jesus Christ. Everyday the US surprises me.
CaptainYesterday
The city argued because high IQ he would likely get bored and find another job. Thus the city was wasting money by hiring and training him
VoiceofDiedrichBader
PD: You're too likely to make scrupulous decisions to serve and protect civilians.We prefer spontaneous,fly by the seat of your pants types.
Kronzor
Well that's some of the most fucked up shit I ever did here.
TakWriterOfWorlds
Yep, and apparently his score put him around a 125 IQ so not even that high really.
PrivateIsotope
I'm conflicted. Obviously the swatter needs charges, but...man...dude just opened the door and got shot. Isn't that more on the officer?
voluptuousvixen
1. Can we talk for a second about the POS 25 year old who called a swat team to a fake address claiming to have murdered someone,
voluptuousvixen
and holding others hostage. Police went into the situation with information regarding a homicidal man - hence the reaction.
natemandoo
Cop said arms up, he reached for his belt. Many cops are killed that way, you can't expect them not to act that way, they are entitled to 1-
natemandoo
Entitled to go home to their families.
420xxx69CommunismWillWin69xxx420
If they want to be entitled to go home to their families they shouldn't be police.
natemandoo
That's not fair, police are needed and they do a rough job. Trust me, I don't envy them and I am military.
420xxx69CommunismWillWin69xxx420
So am I, but if anyone told me that I was entitled to come home I'd tell them that that's kinda not what the job entails.
knive404
100%! The jackass who called it in is partially to blame, but the man's life is on the "trained" officer who pulled the trigger.
GrandmaSlappy
Google Graham v. Connor, basically a get out of jail free card for cops.
MastaChaps
whynotboth.gif
woodenrobot
Yes it is. The death is totally on that shooter for not giving a moment of thought before killing someone
GrandmaSlappy
Google Graham v. Connor, basically a get out of jail free card for cops.
StormBurnX
Yep! And the PD's response was "our thoughts and prayers go out to the victim's family and the officer and his family." Like what the fuck.
CKOD
Its almost like there should be multiple layers of protection from someone calling 911 to dial-a-hit, and more than one person at fault
GodApollo
They 'say' he reached for his waist but we cant know for sure
ZombieJonSnow
Super dangerous when a keyed up swat team runs up thinking theres bodies and hostages inside. One bad twitch and your dead...
mechanicalchaos
Shouldn't there be SLIGHTLY more investigation than one call before an entire SWAT team is ready to shoot the first poor fucker at the door?
FishstickPizza
And the moment the investigation stops a rapid response people are going to complain that with lives on the line SWAT did not arrive in time
alsoAzrael
It's pretty disturbing that the in the article nobody questions this part. The death is entirely on the "swatter," and not the cop.
tremaursen
Watched the video and under first impressions the situation was handled and executed extremely poorly. Police failed to make anything (1)
tremaursen
Clear to the guy before engaging, on top of the fact that they had no idea who opened the door. Could have easily been a hostage.
SaturnineCult
The swatter said that a man is keeping other man and someone as hostage. So they could've shot the hostage if that was the situation.
liam33
100% on the cop ive seen streamers get swatted no shots fired everyone comes out okay this was just another trigger happy cop
FishstickPizza
Not even 1% on the false call in?
Alwayswipe
Story I read said that the police hadn’t knocked on the the door yet. He heard them, opened the door, and screamed. Still a problem though.
rvleshrac
The guy getting shot is 100% on the cops. They did no checking, no due diligence, and this cop is completely fucking incompetent.
Treblaine
I hope they don't just go after the officer, if this is (as I suspect) a negligent discharge, that's EQUALLY on the PD's training standards.
DorianBlack
Yes. The caller is a cunt, but the cops yet again fucking shoot first ask questions later cowboys.
Kamunari
Which is usually a place to keep a dangerous weapon. The officers were only doing their job and doing what they believed to be protecting2/2
PrivateIsotope
I mean...did he though? I am growing suspicious of the "he reached for his waistband" thing. Guy opens the door and reaches for his 1/2
PrivateIsotope
Waistband, why exactly? And why does only one cop take this as a sign to shoot him? 2/2
artydax
A light was shone on him and his natural reaction was to cover his eyes. He was then shit.
artydax
*shot
OGsatan
Because they received info that the house had gasoline poured everywhere and a family held hostage in a closet in the back of the house
PureUnadulteratedBait
"OGsatan has a harem of baby sex-slaves covered in gasoline in their basement" "Understandable we'll send over an officer to shoot him right
Etrill611
No, shit works for this.
ensensu
It's almost like consoles should have a swatting function built into them that only makes it seem like it's happening.
Hellbino
He reached for his belt so he did what he was trained to do
KartFnocker
Fuck that. Out of many cops, one fired. If this was from proper training, more would have. It's on the cop (and the call-in, obv)
LanaDelReyy
Absolutey
ResidentDietitian
The swatter is just a terrible person. He’s called multiple bomb threats before to several events, swats frequently, etc. Went by Swautistic
TheShogunOfSarcasm
YES! Exactly.
march1ne
If I'm told there is a killer in a house who is using ppl as hostages. Point is as a officer it isn't all on him. He was briefed danger
KartFnocker
And what if this killer makes a hostage open the door?
march1ne
Also I have been awoke by swat with mp5s and m16s could have been ars but they was nice boxers outside sitting on a curb. They didn't shoot
VinerialBlumpkin11
So many to blame in this case, but I would like to see officers held to the same standard anyone else would be in a deadly shooting. If I
VinerialBlumpkin11
Had pulled the trigger, under similar circumstances, no doubt I would be arrested prosecuted and most likely found guilty. I am pro gun &
VinerialBlumpkin11
Feel strongly that we should all take an active role in our own defense, but some police shooting leave me scratching my head as to how
VinerialBlumpkin11
We allow this as a society. I wish there was better footage that showed the victims actions more clearly. It should not be considered a
VinerialBlumpkin11
Deadly threat for someone's hands to be near their waist (roughly the same place they would like at rest.)
VodkaReindeer
Yeah, SWAT go into wrong houses all the fucking time. It's not a swatting problem, is 'murica police problem.
NICEREST2EvenNicer
Swatting is still a terrible thinh to do
DelumStudios
"'Murica"
Trunkmonkay
"All the time"
ThisOneTimeInZelda
I would believe that police are given incorrect addresses often.
Trunkmonkay
"Often"
captinjr3
Swat didn't go to the wrong house, they went to the house that was reported. The swatter who called it in gave the wrong address.
VodkaReindeer
I wasn't talking about this specific incident. You do understand that it's possible for them to enter the wrong building, in general?
FuckMeThenYou
But they did completely fuck up confirming what the fuck was actually happening and just shot a random
PaperCl1p
Statistically it really isn't. But we should always strive for zero mistakes
eroso
Do share that statistic. I've only seen statistics pointing to opposite direction.
PaperCl1p
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2014/dec/03/marc-morial/are-deaths-police-shootings-highest-20-years/
eroso
This doesn't even compare to other ountries - I understand why u got downvoted
villlllle
I mean I've never heard of the Finnish police go to a wrong apartment and just shoot someone who opens the door.
termaatf7
Never heard of a dutch cop shooting someone except for people who were firing guns
VodkaReindeer
I saw the bodycam footage and the cops shot him from across the street. Their plan should be to hide from shots instead of shooting first.
TheRealPurpleDrink
Lonk?
CKOD
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/video/news/video-1598696/
VodkaReindeer
kansas.com (funny that urbandictionary actually helped me decode your typo)
TheRealPurpleDrink
I think the second definition is better.
CKOD
But muh elite operator fantasy
aselfdefeatingattitude
http://www.newsweek.com/police-shootings-killings-us-unarmed-black-reform-michael-brown-764787 policing in the US is broken.
AuburnTiger91
This is a tragedy not at all like Mr. Brown and comparisons trivialize it. 74% of ppl shot by police had fired first (Wash Post).
klj126
And conservatives have bought into the whole critique of policing is unamerican. Fucking bull shit. Same with military
SilenceHasFallenAK
Before simply generalizing everything, you should probably view the instances. I bet a lot of these deaths weren't compliant.
sixtyeightwhiskey
(1/2)In 2011 there were 11million arrests only around 2k reported police brutality. Less then 1% but still enough to put a case on the news
sixtyeightwhiskey
(2/2) every day for a year and make people go crazy
Treblaine
Did they not go to the address the hoax caller gave them?
Niveks9i6
They did, the the person who called the seat gave an address provided by the person he was arguing with (1)
Niveks9i6
The person who gave the address to the person who called the swat gave a wrong address
Kamunari
The man did not follow orders given by the SWAT team. He instead reached for the waist of his pants ignoring the officer 1/2
Kamunari
Oh shit -100 downvotes :p I was just restating sorry imgur lol
EposSatyr
Family member in the home at the time claimed she heard no verbal orders. Seems unlikely, but Idk how swat teams carry out these scenarios
user76
Is that based on video evidence or the police officers statement, as seems that police don't always tell the truth?
PureUnadulteratedBait
The issue with the so-called "video evidence" is that the PD invested pretty much fuck all into the cameras. There's like 3 pixels.
Idosss
Someone else pointed out that kidnappers rarely answer the door in a confused haze so the police lack critical thinking in that situation
PrivateIsotope
This
DeliberateMisinterpretation
Police are people too. People make mistakes. Stupid, stupid people...
DJWienerSoup
But I guess that whole police training with weapon restraint, deescalation, and risk assessment is all just for show.
DJWienerSoup
Maybe, just maybe, police officers meant to protect people and who carry deadly weapons should be held to a higher standard than civilians.
SneakEFoxxe
If I ran someone over with my car and killed them, it would be a mistake, but I wouldn't get off scott free.
sambaloelek
Police are not just people. They go through training and evaluations, carry guns and carry out the law. Fuck yeah they should know better
GringoMandingo1
This completely wrong. People who are trained to handle firearms are held to the highest standard. Being in military and if I shoot 1/
GringoMandingo1
Someone without using the proper ramp of force I am going to jail for murder. It isnt a should be because they are.
AgentObvious
While that's true, of course, I think that police should be held to a higher standard, as they might end up with people dead.
AgentObvious
Then again, what do I know. Take anything out say with a grain of salt, haha
JollyRogarrgh
It's idealist thinking any way you approach it. Who the fuck pranks someone like this to start
IxnayOnTheOttenRay
This is why guns are bad. People make mistakes. Now that cop and the Finch family are traumatized.
jpparkenbone
The gun debate has no place here. These are police. They will always be armed. Hell, even Japanese police carry guns
EposSatyr
Still under investigation. Initial reports said he just opened the door and was shot, but today I saw he repeatedly reached to his waistband
EposSatyr
The cop probably did shoot too soon in a panic, imo. If a cop shoots before even seeing a weapon, they need to be re-trained
spacecatexplorer
Apparently he did comply and raise his hands but dropped them for a second, which the officer shot him thinking he's going for a gun
circlebreaker
"He was reaching for a gun. I was terrified. You all saw it, right?" *places pistol with filed-off serial numbers next to corpse*
circlebreaker
The lives of all canines inside a home getting raided are forfeit as well. Even submissive dogs are routinely shot. Standard procedure.
kuneshha
VodkaReindeer
lol @ divx logo. That's some retro shit right there.
TattooedGinger
100% false. I’ve done hundreds of search warrants and killed 0 dogs.
residentolive
That's you, but the data shows cops kill dogs all the time. To a level which makes you wonder if some enjoy it...
thebigcheese
I think this would be an excellent time to link to the data you allude to.
ImgurMadeMeChangeMyNameCauseItsDumb
https://qz.com/870601/police-killing-dogs-is-an-epidemic-according-to-the-justice-department/
ImgurMadeMeChangeMyNameCauseItsDumb
And i would point out that police agencies actively suppress data on police shootings, so the problem is likely far worse than we know.
o4kill
And then they wonder why people arent exactly happy to see them show up on their doorstep, or why they take a while to come out.
o4kill
Give me two flipping minutes to muzzle my dogs okay? Your gear won't be any sweatier at the end of the day.
circlebreaker
They don't wonder, they give them shit for refusing to sign on with the 'Thin Blue Line' fan club...
o4kill
Now I am not a policeman because I don't have the intestinal fortitude. They deal with a lot of trauma, corpses who died alone and smelly...
o4kill
It's just hard to applaud someone for sacrificing their life when their RoEs say "f that shit, better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6"
NacLac
Military is taught to shoot when a threat is clear, not when it is suspected. Reaching for something is not enough. Have to see a weapon
loki25
Um unless you're in an active war zone/occupied territory. Then you can shoot a dude in the face for using binoculars or a cell phone.
GrandmaSlappy
Yeah, it’s not the same for police, it’s a “what would a reasonable officer do” comparison, so juries side with the cop(Graham v Connor)
TattooedGinger
They don’t just side with the cop, they have to look at the situation as to what a reasonable person would do. Put themselves in that state
netharia
Then why are they almost always acquitted?
GrandmaSlappy
Because a reasonable person is a byproduct of being poorly equipped to make such judgments
rvleshrac
Cops are taught that you NEVER shoot at ANYTHING if you haven't identified it as a clear threat. This could have been a fucking hostage.
netharia
Trouble is what they define as a 'clear threat'. Some places it's a move towards an identifiable lethal weapon. Others it's any movement.
ImgurMadeMeChangeMyNameCauseItsDumb
yup, you know shit is messed up when military in war zones has a far higher use of force standard than the police.
PrivateIsotope
If that is true...we've got some changing to do. Rules of was should not be different than for citizens
TattooedGinger
Big difference between military ROE and law enforcement. Cops don’t have to be shot at first before they defend themselves.
TattooedGinger
What about civilians? Should they not be able to defend themselves until they are shot at? Doesn’t seem fair if you think civilians can
NacLac
And that policy has resulted in thousands of dead innocent Americans. Perhaps a change would be good for everyone.
CatsOrExcited
People are down voting you? An ex-cop told me the rules vary based on the type of police philosophy the region uses. So both sides are true.
CatsOrExcited
I don't remember much, but he talked about police philosophy & assumptions in the USA. How it's NOT consistent & under debate. 2 main sides?
rvleshrac
Cops are trained, repeatedly, for hundreds or thousands of hours, not to shoot randomly at shit. This cop should be in prison.
NacLac
Evidence says otherwise. A hundred hours of target discrimination training per cop would result in zero innocents gunned down.
rvleshrac
Not when the penalty for ignoring the training is "Nothing happens."
TattooedGinger
Unfortunately cops aren’t trained for thousands of hours. Most departments only qualify a few times a year due to low budgets.
arsetechnica
Depending on the police agency the military sometimes also gets a lot more training :p
nonamejanie
This is true for our town I know cops that have never seen an academy they were trained by the current police... they carry weapons.
NacLac
Which is really unfortunate as police have a much harder responsibility when it comes to handling firearms in an urban setting.
imgonnahurtu
Police get a lot less funding, and often times have it cut.
GooberMonster
That's more of an opinion. I could easily argue otherwise.
NacLac
Police by nature must protect and serve. Military is just there to eliminate a threat. Vastly different reasons to fire a weapon.
TheAssassinArtemisEntreri
Agreed, you cant expect innocent people in their home to be perfectly compliant with police. They may be confused, just woke up, drunk, etc.
GrandmaSlappy
Google Graham v. Connor
ENG518Tech
Graham v Connor is the reason cops get off, it set the precedent for reasonable standard as objective, but the interpretation has been 1/?
ENG518Tech
Subjective in most cases. The grand jury never indict, because cops are taught what to say on the stand to give a subjective reason, as 2/?
ENG518Tech
"I feared for my safety and that of fellow officers 3/3
voluptuousvixen
You also can’t expect a sway team told there is a homicidal man on the premises to just “assume” everyone is innocent.
ThisOneTimeInZelda
They were within feet of him they could have tried to subdue him. Instead they went with instant kill shot, seems pretty blood thirsty.
dereliquemaownballz
Dude. They were across the street.
Treblaine
Uhh, gee man, you really set yourself up for that.
PubicOvergrowth
What about being innocent until proven otherwise? Forgot that?
voluptuousvixen
So the swat team should ignore the info the received about a murder, hostages, and the Home being covered in gas?
KartFnocker
No, but they should also evaluate the situation and not blast the guy at the first awkward movement
TheRaiderofRandom
Evidence of exigent circumstances or confirmation of them from a second party is taught in most US police academies as required before 1/
TheRaiderofRandom
LEO can invade private property or treat the occupants as likely hostile even if they are compliant. So someone was quick on the trigger.2/2
LazyLexiconographer
It boils down to being unreasonable to take an anonymous source for granted.
LazyLexiconographer
2/2 someone from the residence called. If so that is fucking diabolical and he needs to hang.
plssuckitandsee
No, it boils down to a little shit reporting a fake hostage situation over a 3 dollar bet. Police must treat every 911 call as genuine
LazyLexiconographer
Well I heard that the little shit in question may have used a spoofed telephone number to trick location and make it seem like someone 1/2
LazyLexiconographer
There are standards, Reasonable articulatable suspicion and probably cause. Police need to chill the fuck out until evidence of crime exists
plssuckitandsee
It wasn't some fucking speeding ticket that turned into a drug search, that's where reasonable suspicion and probable cause come in 1/
DrKriegersClone
Police are saying he twitched a hand toward his waistband when told to put his hands up. That'll probably be justification enough.
robdavy
Shouldn't be though
knive404
OF COURSE THEY SAID THAT UGGHHH
TheDogEnd
A major issue is trust. Police SAY he twitched his hand, but did he or are they looking for a way out of trouble? Do you trust implicitly?
Ruhig
So hard to say. Watched some of Donut Operator's stuff on youtube, and there are some insane incidents. Easy to get wrong in the heat of -
Ruhig
- the moment, but IMO, Police need to put the welfare of the public above their own. I think that's a part of the job.
DrKriegersClone
There's supposedly body cam video, but it's not clear enough to tell. I have no desire to look it up for myself even if it's public, though.
PrivateIsotope
This. I'm at the point where I have to ask this question all the time. It becomes more obvious the worse the shooting sounds.
circlebreaker
It is. There was an incident recently where an unarmed man was crawling, weeping & begging for his life. Shot five times for reaching 1/
FuckMeThenYou
don't forget the completely fucked up commands he was given by one of the officers "hold your hands over you head, now lay down."
circlebreaker
IF YOU LOSE YOUR BALANCE, FALL ON YOUR FACE OR I'LL SHOOT YOU!
circlebreaker
down to pull up his shorts. Police attempted to prevent release of the body-cam footage; officer in question had 'YOU'RE FUCKED' engraved 2/
circlebreaker
on his firearm. 3/3
ImgurMadeMeChangeMyNameCauseItsDumb
seems like a nice guy.
KartFnocker
And while the footage was released, it wasn't until after the guy got let off at his trial!
alsoAzrael
That was such disturbing footage. He told him over and over that he was gonna shoot him, and the dude was just crying asking not to be shot.
PanicAtTheCostco
And these are the guys we hire to be police. Like we're just hiring anybody as long as they haven't been convicted and don't use drugs.
PanicAtTheCostco
That's so stupid. What if this guy had been mentally handicapped and didn't understand what was going on? Police should be considering all-
DrKriegersClone
Deafness or mental handicaps that prevent understanding a police command are effectively death sentences now.
ImgurMadeMeChangeMyNameCauseItsDumb
They would have killed him obviously. happens all the time.
PanicAtTheCostco
possible scenarios not just the one they want to be happening at that moment. Police are so ready to use their weapons, why?? Why is it-
cpnbeeb
Police have the THEM OR US I AIN'T DYIN' IN NO GHETTO!!! mentality beaten into them at the academy and until they retire.
PanicAtTheCostco
Unfortunately so
PanicAtTheCostco
shoot first ask later?? That's the fucking opposite of what should be happening. A cop signs up to put his life danger. Unarmed civilians-
PanicAtTheCostco
don't. Civilians aren't trained. They aren't the ones that are supposed to keep their cool in the situation. It's up to the officers.
PrivateIsotope
The bad part about it is this: Hold your hands normally. Now flinch. Your hands will probably come up near your waistband.
Deezmo
Hands straight forward and then upwards. I've had to do it once before! Apparently some guy shot up a seven eleven before I arrived
PrivateIsotope
This sounds like a better command.
alsoAzrael
Imagine opening the door, getting a gun shoved in your face by someone screaming at you, and not flinching. It would be impossible.
PrivateIsotope
Exactly!
PanicAtTheCostco
That's a pretty good observation. Police should never open fire until they see the weapon. I don't understand they're behind cars AND vests.
[deleted]
[deleted]
[deleted]
[deleted]
AStegosaurus
By the time you see the weapon, you are shot multiple times. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=884W4l3eoQg
PrivateIsotope
Compromise? At least wait until they actually see you go inside of your waistband? It doesn't take much time for someone to remove a 1/2
PrivateIsotope
Weapon, but at the very least, you should be sure they're going for something, not just moving their hands in an area they already are 2/2
sch444412
it's on both. both played their part and did their fuckup and the question which fuckup is more fucked up is irrelevant.
WhyDontYouMakeMe
He was suspected to be armed and dangerous, having "already killed someone". This wasn't going to end well for anyone
robdavy
Of course it's relevant! One is a stupid person and the other is a systemic problem with US policing
PietroAretino
Ehhhhh idk one is obviously a retard another is supposed to be a trained and trusted individual.
sethyuikora
I disagree. Excessive use of force on the part of the officer was ultimately the cause for unnecessary loss of life. 10/10 recon.
sch444412
I'm not saying the guy who swatted should be charged with murder. I'm just saying he shouldn't be excused because there are worse problems.
sethyuikora
Accessory to murder, or a similar charge, one could hope. Reckless endangerment, definitely. Disappointing at any rate. Hope for justice.
PrivateIsotope
This is the best and most obvious answer. Thank you! LOL! What a way to explain it, but its perfect!
DavidBrooker
Proportionality is a very critical concept in the Western philosophy of justice. Fuckups vary in severity and that's important.
sch444412
The severity of one fuckup does not affect the severity of another. Fuckness of each is handled separately. That's why it's irrelevant.
rvleshrac
It does, in fact. If the guy who did the hoax operated under the assumption that cops weren't morons, he had no expectation of this outcome.
rvleshrac
He certainly SHOULD have expected this outcome, because most cops seem to be morons, but that will absolutely factor in to the charges.
CPolofVancouver
Apparently he didn't respond to some verbal commands, but I agree: part of this is definitely on the officer.
ArandomDane
Stepped outside. Someone yelled at him from across the street, blinding him with a light. Moved his hand to shade eyes. BANG dead
HaveGinWillBabble
Part?
CPolofVancouver
Well there was the guy who actually swatted him....
OnANeedToKnowBasis
Yes, because the person who intentionally orchestrated a high pressure situation involving guns is responsible too...
KimchiFarts
He was probably very shocked and confused, they barely gave him time to process what was happening before shooting him.
EuclidsDfinder
No way is it on the officer, the only information the cop had (which was false) was that he had a gun and already killed someone with it.
jrntn
The cop murdered an innocent unarmed man without making any attempts to ascertain the situation. Fuck that shit
halucid
Most departments have protocols that say you can’t kill a suspect unless they’re putting someone’s life in extreme danger at that moment.
novakaiser
In the body cam footage he lowered his hands to his waist and raised them which I assume the officer thought was him drawing a weapon
[deleted]
[deleted]
FuckMeThenYou
It was 100% on the officers also! You and you literally explained why. They skiped confirming if he was a threat and just went with "shoot"
joevair
He was "afraid", so, no prob at trial.