JamieSays
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Feb 5, 2026 3:37 AM
JamieSays
29450
931
28
ToSisPoS
Man, I sure love giving free advertising to Jeff Bezos
DriverIRQnotlessOrEqual
To that one legionnaire: I am going to wear your head like a hat
Hotsauceman
Hmmmmmmm. Decisions…decisions.
mjperk
You know that the Fallout games have always been a HUGE social commentary, right? Of course it's on point. It's one of the reasons I/we love it.
TheRealArclight
cytherians
Was that caricature reused for Fallout, with an origin from somewhere long ago?
HitandRyan
See, this is why I’ve never sided with the Legion
Utouto
The GOP
PhurbuMukpodom
Actually l hear it more often from extreme leftists who think that if you’re not Eugene Debs or Huey Newton, you’re just enabling fascism.
kosherpork
Really not fair to Sloth. Sloth had empathy and compassion
OhIfIMust
Hey, leave Sloth out of this!!
LabyrinthBuilder
WhiskyBravo
like hell it can....
beaubrent
The other side won't fight. Even now their leaders cave at a light headwind.
65454685132465846865163
o shit season 2 is out? wild that this is the first I'm hearing about it
LokilairTTV
It. Is. Glorious!
Dracology
I mean not only out but over yeah. Season Finale was Tuesday
Allthegoodnamesweretakenbeckygod
It is, and is beautiful!
nspriest233
Except for the choice with the kings. Though I am biased because I thuroughly enjoyed the kings in new vegas
cytherians
It really is. I think it's an excellent evolution from season 1.
tw1st3dm3ttl3
That contrast. Lol sometimes 'plainly' is best.
peedrinkingcrapface
i don't think they were trying to make a Sophie's Choice out of moral ambiguity.
the NCR was exponentially less evil than Legion, but Legion was exponentially better written. that was the intended dilemma: do you want to be the milquetoast good guys or the most interesting bad guys you've ever seen?
ButtscratchMcPherson
All I know is that if the NCR doesn't let Bernie win their presidential primary I'm keeping my bottle caps and staying home election day.
LokilairTTV
That just makes it easier for the Legion to kill people in the streets tho.
ButtscratchMcPherson
Yes but think about the sanctity of my voting record.
LokilairTTV
mmmmmmmm.... no
thatunpleasantfeeling
The issue is the parts of the Legion that did work would have been impossibly incredible feats if done by the NCR, but the reason the Legion managed to do them WAS murder, slavery, and crucifying people. Like, there are literally no raiders in Legion territory. Imagine Fallout, Fallout 2, Fallout 3, Fallout 4, and the part of Vegas the NCR controlled, all without raiders. The Legion's territory is larger than the area in Fallout 3, 4, NV, and 76 combined.
But they are so fucking EVIL.
thatunpleasantfeeling
Like, as much as you want to look at how incredible eradicating the very existence of raiders as a faction is, you can't look at it being built on slavery, sadistic torture, extreme misogyny, crucifixion, and still think it is good. Because with how it is established, it all destabilizes and returns once the evil foundation crumbles.
And so obviously you look to a group that is flawed, but can be built up. But all you find is the NCR, who are chuckle-fuck levels of incompetent. House Wins IMO.
LokilairTTV
Theyre just raiders with matching jackets my dude.
thatunpleasantfeeling
But really good matching jackets. Like, redesigned football uniforms good. :P
ChiLLeCheeze
Why can't we all get along!?
cytherians
Primal instincts need to be tamed with a conscious mind. That requires well structured education. But when society can't manage to provide comprehensive education to include social disciplines, it all breaks down. Especially if the society is fueled by capitalism as an economic policy / mandate / religion.
ChernoGamma
Because we're all so very alike.
Dracology
Love the show. Don't know that I love that the show is canon going forward. While I enjoy it as a show there are some parts that I'm like... Is that really what happened? or What? How did we get here?
XuncuTheTiger
As not a game fan, but haven done a few wiki dives due to co-workers being into it, *then* the show came out: of course they had to adjust some things, like season 1 is *like* onto game 1, season 2 to New Vegas, I feel season 3 will have the endgame boss from game 1, and things they had to update to today's political climate and knowledge: It did seem that people theorized Vaut-tec started the war even before season 1. Looking from the outside; I concur. Show just updates details to say *why.*
somebackup
I assume by game 1 you mean fallout 3 and not the actual game 1?
XuncuTheTiger
Plus, as the literal son of a bard: it does a good job at humanizing (and dehumanizing) who did what for what reason, and shows dissenting opinion within factions, giving nuance to once monolithic factions, including how it still applies to new things that have happened since those games came out-- eg; Legion is the MAGA powerfantasy, while Trumpus Ceasar clearly means for himself to be the be-all end-all.
KrampusCopia
I completely agreed with you until you said "giving nuance to once monolithic factions"
I dont like what they did with the factions. They made them more monolithic, not less. The Brotherhood is just a bunch of frat bros instead of being the guardians of knowledge and power. The NCR is basically disbanded. I feel like none of the decisions or actions I made in the game mattered.
interesseret
I mean... The Brotherhood literally are a bunch of frat bros, rather than being guardians of knowledge and power. Remember, the "outcasts" in fallout 3 are the REAL brotherhood, not Lyons clubhouse.
XuncuTheTiger
And how some things are simply timeless: I'm sure most know of using 'Corpo' like a slur is popular because of Cyberpunk 2077, but I found a quote that did the same from a book written around the early NINETEEN HUNDREDS. All we need is a someone named Luigi to point out to Barb that she didn't need to kill billions to protect Janey... but just a few specific billionaires, but the showrunners are just being subtle about it.
GenStrike
Not "just vaguely problematic" - ineffective. Worse, democrats frequently capitulate.
noobyorkcity
Factual. But allowing the people they capitulate to to replace them? Isn't that worse than settling for the capitulators? Of course we deserve better than either, but it's the idea that they're just as bad as each other that kept 1/3 of the people from voting. I'm not letting Harris or the DNC off the hook for making that happen. Just that there's a HUGE difference between "horrible second choice" and "just as bad." It needs to be said.
GenStrike
Supporting the enabler won't help you escape an abusive household, and it won't remove fascists from the government.
GenStrike
You don't understand. What people are saying is that the "horrible second choice" is in cahoots with the "horrible first choice". They frequently help them achieve goals. When they don't, when it isn't politically expedient, the put up a token resistance and then capitulate. Look at all the NOTHING that democrats got for the shutdown. Waste of effort.
There needs to be a third option. The democrats are effectively "controlled opposition". Bernie/AOC notwithstanding, they're not a serious party.
LokilairTTV
While youre definitely extrapolating the "vaguely problematic" comment in detail.
Horrible 1st and 2nd choice in cahoots with a do nothing attitude... is still better (not good, better) than enabling the faction disappearing wastelanders and killing them in the streets with their little army of incels.
3rd options are great, wasteland has those too. First responders, FotA, House, fire breathers, BoS, minutemen, institute, railroad, etc.
archon325
I don't know guys. I'm starting to think Dems only seem 'vaguely problematic' because they know their role is to offer hope in order to tamper down calls for revolution. If you've been keeping up with the Epstein files you know that basically everyone who is rich and powerful is evil. The only sides are the one in class warfare, everything else is an illusion. Biden's FBI had the files, and didn't investigate anyone mentioned in them.
LokilairTTV
Youre describing the Enclave (those with power/ wealth) not the NCR (gives hope but sucks at it)
Also Biden couldn't unseal the files because of Maxwell then ongoing investigation. Had them? Yes. Could release them? No.
GenStrike
"controlled opposition"
billy3890
Bidens staff were also told the horrific things happening to the Gazans- that it was made into a wasteland with deformed orphaned children wandering for food, and they kept funding american taxpayers to give billions towards that psychotic government. Trump is destroying the world, Biden isn't as crazy, but is evil enough that he should rot in hell with most american presidents.
JamieSays
Put your money where your mouth is and lead the charge.
archon325
I'm disabled due to chronic pain, I use two canes to get to the bathroom. And I'm Canadian. And EVEN SO I'm tempted to come down there and do something, if I were healthy I'd probably have gotten into trouble by now.
Maybe you should be questioning your gut reaction to imply ppl are hypocrites though? Like, why? Are you insecure about the fact that you know I'm right but you aren't willing to take action? That's fine, just don't discourage ppl who are, it undermines us.
LokilairTTV
He's *pulls out a card* CANADIAN!
JamieSays
I'm encouraging you. Why are you reading it as the opposite?
GeneralWho
"Put your money where your mouth is" isn't encouragement, it's a challenge, a demand. They rightly interpreted it as such, and the fact that you did so without knowing the first thing about them is extremely telling.
archon325
Because so many people do, sorry if I took it the wrong way. But yeah, as soon as I suggest to most ppl that we aren't doing enough, the response comes back "Well what are you doing?". I think they feel attacked, so they attack back, and it halts any progress towards our goal, which takes time to build towards.
Sechran
NCR vs. Legion? I haven't watched the show.
WhoWantsAMustacheRide
I mean, shady sands wasn't even vaguely problematic! It seemed downright utopic.
TheAnswerWasAlwaysMoreLube
Indeed, we are faced with a choice between an indifferent bureaucracy and a fanatical genocide.
Such moral dilemma.
noobyorkcity
Crap, now I want a BLT
aerodynamit3
But the NCR has TAXES. Which to hank are equally as bad as crucifixions, rapes, and pillaging. Not like the Legion wouldn't have taxes in the form of stuff like "tributes" to the Caesar (pronounced Kaisar)
ToasterDent
Trading Places reaction gif is on point
JohnnySilverballs
Bingo. That's exactly what she was comparing.
thoushaltnotpass
I thought it was outside-world vs Vault-tec but now both make sense
Sechran
I heard there was a lot of grumbling about allusions to how New Vegas turned out. Based on the continued existence of the Legion, I understand.
Hell, in my game, Caesar died as a matter of convenience. There was a quest objective on a table inside his tent. After picking it up and glancing across the tent at Lord Folicus Minimus, I looked at Boone, shrugged, remarked, "As long as we're here, might as well..." and pulled out my Fat Man.
At least the Wiki says Caesar's dead in the show.
AlmightyElephant
Eh. Anyone who thinks the show is meant to be canon to the games is really not familiar with the games.
Yes I know that Bethesda are insisting it's canon, and I'm including them in that statement.
DeKetsendeRechter
Fallout 3 and 4 are also not meant to be canon.
The franchise was abuse by corporate epstein associates.
In interviews they talk about how dumb gamers are and how shit of a hobby it is.
They take existing franchises and turn them in to "appeal to a broader audience" slop. Anything their team of experts can think of to trick as many people in to becoming a paying consumer.
Despite that, I think the show did a wonderful job of not doing the cliché american style of doing references.
notfinelabsMcNastiLives3000
I played New Vegas a second time and tried the narrative approach. But, Caesar? I killed that fucker immediately. No fucks
ButtscratchMcPherson
I've played though NV like three times and I've never even have seen Caesar. Even when I say to myself I'm going to see how far I can get in the story before the Legion is too evil that I have to break from them I end up just shooting them all on sight.
LariCheltsy
Bullshit. If Boone had made it that far nobody would be alive
LabyrinthBuilder
Apart badly treated women and child slaves, one reason you need to kill him on replay is an achievement where you need to kill Caesar with a knife.
spiceass9000
I don’t really see why. I think it’s great and obviously it isn’t the game. They do hint at the game though and the events of the show appear to be a couple of years after the events of the game. They missed out on the chance to do a couple things, like bring in Tabitha (they had the perfect chance) and obviously Joshua graham. But there’s still more seasons. Oh and some good automated machine spitting out jokes about killing communists would be cool. But overall it’s great
kithylin
In the show Caesar's Legion marched rank-and-file onto New Vegas while the NCR occupied freeside, implying a war in next season.
vindik8or
There were like 50 NCR Rangers, though. If they don't have more of those power armours that Maximus trashed, they're done for.
OriginalSyn
Keep in mind the show is 15 years after FNV so the legion could have rebuilt. I killed House and installed Yes Man in my play through, I'm not upset about how the show went, any number of things can be used to make House's return make sense, he tends to have contingencies for everything.
BIDWK
Neglecting courier 6's intervention, it would be very hard for him to survive his tumor
TheWombatStrikesAgain
They openly admitted it: they didn't want to canonize an ending, so they decided no one won.
Not a fan of that decision as a player, but - as with many questionable decisions in the show - if you see it as its own standalone thing, it's okay.
ydwyrd
Seeing as Kimball, Caesar and House are all dead, (Even if House turned himself in to an AI) I took it to mean Wild Card was the chosen ending, and the Securitron we see next to House's terminal was Yes Man.
5amNonsense
Engaging with media gets a lot more enjoyable when you start treating everything as its own standalone thing and selectively picking what you think is canon
ReaperCDN
^ This. "But that's not canon!" I don't care. Palpatine is a space lich, that's why he needed the Death Star in the first place when Star Destroyers could do the same thing. The kyber crystal at it's core was the secret to immortality. He needed to create a wound in the force so large and powerful that a force user could reach beyond death itself.
None of that is canon, and I don't care.
JohnnySilverballs
Yup, according to the show, Caesar is dead, there was a civil war among the legion over who would be his successor and, I'm not going to post a spoiler of the season finale of how their civil war turned out.
battery1979
Caesar is dead, long live Caesar.
LunarEntropy
He deserves a palace in New Vegas
Arinoth
I love how it turned out though
JohnnySilverballs
Agreed. I can't wait until season 3 to see more.
nemo3590
Ok but there was fire right there why did he eat it lmao
RyvaTheRenamon
It was so on brand...
TheDoctorCrankenstein
Yea, the Dems aren't "vaguely problematic". They are explicitly problematic in that the central ideology of the Democrats, neoliberalism, fundamentally enables the rise of fascism.
They are only "vaguely problematic" if you have no understanding of political systems from a leftist perspective.
Just because some nobility practiced "noblesse oblige" didn't change their direct participation in and benefit from a fundamentally oppression system which empowered others of nobility to be tyrants.
JamieSays
"Republicans are Democrats' fault."
You sound crazy.
TheDoctorCrankenstein
You sound uneducated in how political systems work and how the structure of these institutions create specific incentives that shape society into what it is.
JamieSays
TheDoctorCrankenstein
How simple are you to think this is just assigning blame instead of understanding systemic forces?
Yes, because you can't criticize the Democrats for what they are unless you are a fascist cuck. What great logic there. /s
JamieSays
You sound mad, lol
TheDoctorCrankenstein
Republicans are fascist because they are fascist but that doesn't have anything to do with how neoliberalism enables fascists to consolidate power through our economic and political structures that are fundamental to the ideology.
JamieSays
It's amazing how desperate people are to blame dems for everything.
eidam655
"Democrats, neoliberalism, fundamentally enables the rise of fascism"
the same fascist tendencies exhibited by current republican politicians? how does that work?
AWdeV
there are some democrats trying to work within the system and trying to make change in specific fields and locations but at the same time people like gavin newsom are *incredibly* cynically relying on vote blue no matter who while he goes out of his way to move further and further right and only ever bothers to appeal to scum like Bannon, Kirk and Shapiro.
Your vote is guaranteed so fuck you and what you need, let's pander to actual neonazi Steve Bannon.
AWdeV
this is why the democrats kept corrupt scum like cuomo and pelosi around for far too long too and also why chuck schumer (whose main goal is supporting israel, not fixing american democracy) still rules the roost. These specific people *do not care* about what the people on imgur claim to care about. They're in it for their own gain.
Which is why they also cynically milk 'vote blue no matter who' all the time *except* when their personal 'blue' buddy already lost, like cuomo did.
AWdeV
yes those. They have been enabled by the democrats for decades because it has very much been in their favour to allow the republicans to continue to fester.
The republicans *are* by far the worst of the two but the distinction between Rep and Dem isn't anywhere near as clear as that between the NCR and C's Legion.
Dems are bankrolled by the same oligarchic circlejerk as the reps are (all Jeffy Eppy fans too) because actual change would not be in their own personal interest either.
LokilairTTV
Its victim blaming
"You allowed this to happen!"
"Well, you're the one doing it."
Allrighty
The same, yes. Democrats were unable to stop them and in fact opposed more effective means of stopping them. Neoliberalism isn't fascism but it is powerless against fascism whilst stifling better alternatives.
Destro24
I’ll give it a shot.
At the core of both parties is they are capitalist: private ownership of large-scale production; not to be confused with personal property like your car, house, etc. That ownership is create products that secure money instead of like you and I using money to secure products that we need just to live, which is a market.
The Dems got to a point that they think the market can solve all problems while the GOP believes in more control that feeds the market.
Destro24
What fascism is basically more directly securing resources and labor to keep feed the market at the expense of workers’ freedom and wellbeing. The fault on the Dem’s side is that they largely default more towards what’s good for the market than regular people while the GOP/MAGA default to pure capitalism, so we especially now don’t get the pendulum to truly swing in favor of the working class deeply because the Dems hit a limit in favor of keep industrial leaders happy fairly quickly.
TheDoctorCrankenstein
Go read leftist political theory and learn. I'm not gonna sit here and explain to you the textbooks' worth of information on political and economic systems needed to understand how they create specific incentives that are fundamental to the structure of said systems and then need to explain to you how one benefits from the other to consolidate power and authority further to the right.
Educate yourself.
eidam655
ah, but you are going to sit there and feel important and educated and acting smug when asked to elaborate on your writings. gotcha.
TheDoctorCrankenstein
I'm simply stating my perspective. You can project all your insecurities into it that you like but that won't change that it is nothing more than me simply making a statement.
I have no obligation to debate it with others and justify it to those who don't share it. If you want to understand it, you can go and read from those who have written it in ways more clearly than any argument I personally could articulate in 500 characters.
I don't owe you any elaboration for you to play arbiter of.
eidam655
just to sum it up, this is how this conversation went:
"I think [X]"
"care to elaborate?"
"no, fuck you"
Burke616
"I'm not gonna sit here and substantiate my claims! Go do some homework so the people reading this think I won the argument. If you come back later, no one will see it."
TheDoctorCrankenstein
"How dare you not sit and debate with me the entirety of leftist philosophy and ask me to read and educate myself on these complex and intricate systems"
Don't project on me. I'm not petty enough to care about winning any argument. Believe what you want. Don't go read and educate yourself. I'm simply stating my leftist perspective. If you don't share it I have no obligation to justify it to you.
Burke616
Your perspective doesn't come off as very leftist. And it's worth noting you are petty enough to try to have the last word.
Destro24
Part of the aim of socialism is to educate the public because if the movement can’t be explained, it’s hard to organize.
TheDoctorCrankenstein
Part of it is but it is not my part to play. I am not a tutor nor a teacher. I'm simply stating my perspective. I owe no one a debate over it.
Destro24
If you’re not a tutor/teacher, how can you articulately agitate for change if you’re not willing to tell why you’re agitating in the first place? Even with telling what/why teaches someone to be mad for a reason. So why not share the reason?
Bossco20
I don't know about that. The NCR did use armed thugs to attack independent factions to coerce them into joining them, smuggle drugs, commit genocide, torture prisoners of war, turn a blind eye to evil companies having people murdered so they could get a better deal from them, and let General Oliver lead them.
Z0op
Kind on brand and on point for fallout, basically there arent good guys. Even the minutemen have their fair share of racism, but most factions have some fascist tendencies.
And it also makes it clear that america aint the good guys either, pretty much opposite of it actually.
The ghoul, cooper howard, is like the perfect embodiment of that making clear that the goodie two shoes attitude of lucy has no place in the wasteland.
And everyone being plain awful, including just civilians and vendors
HiMyNameIsKevinIHaveChangnesia
I don’t think these people are talking about fallout anymore. But yeah that’s the universal theme across the games, ain’t no good guy faction in the wasteland just varying degrees of evil and less evil.
XuncuTheTiger
Even the wikia spells out that was when the right-wingers came into power in the NCR.
LokilairTTV
Is that any different than the pre war America where people had homes and cars and entertainment and food?
NCR is the closest thing to pre-war America. Which means, yea is wasnt "good".
But it was better.
Is NCR the good guys? No.
Are they the better guys? Very much so.
TheDoctorCrankenstein
The lesser evil is still evil. It doesn't matter if they are better than other evil if they are still fucking evil themselves.
This mentality just serves to reinforce a false dichotomy that asserts you must choose between the options presented instead of finding alternative solutions that would be more beneficial than empowering evil with overwhelming authority over the people.
LokilairTTV
Anyone who can but doesn't fight in a war, only serves their oppressor. Wars can be fought on multiple fronts. Meaning its not about a dichotomy. Im all for alternative solutions. But to think taking an alternative solution isnt taking a side in any form, is delusional.
Don't Wana give the chip to legion or ncr? Well youre still fucking over one of them regardless who do or dont give it to.
Bossco20
I'm sure all those dead children take heart in knowing the people who exterminated them will have clean running water, Healthcare, and electricity back home
LokilairTTV
Your'e sure of that? Im pretty sure they're just screaming in pain or, if lucky, numbed to the point of no return. Or nothing at all given the death part.
Don't use the suffering of children to push a warped message.
TheDoctorCrankenstein
Reactionaries can never think outside of the box they have been presented with. Never think for yourself. Only just react to what's right in front over you and never look behind the curtain.
Simple minded morons, all of them.
LokilairTTV
The irony of parroting criticism over reactionaries as never thinking for themselves is a level of irony few have obtained, yet here we are.
5amNonsense
There are actual genocides and shit going on in the world that are a lot more worth caring about man
TheDoctorCrankenstein
Are you just dense to not see how what they are criticizing directly relates to the aforementioned "genocide and shit going on in the world"? They are criticizing the governments that are responsible for committing and enabling this shit to be happening, dingus.
5amNonsense
I understand that stories are about real things and reflect real values and conflicts and history. "Tell that to the dead kids" is still a weirdly intense sentiment for an argument about Fallout lore
Macmacfire
And I'm sure they'll take comfort in knowing you shouted "both sides" about the whole issue when there was an active war going on with people who would've done much worse.
Bossco20
They can't take anything because they were slaughtered by the NCR for their land
LokilairTTV
Who's land? Oh, right, the Great Khans. A bunch of raiders.
If you haven't figured out yet, there are no "good" factions. Especially in the wasteland. Closest we've seen canon wise is the first responders and the followers of the apocalypse. Yet their impact in imporving people's lives has been minimal compared to ncr who they worked with!