zafner
32170
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Feb 12, 2025 3:58 PM
zafner
32170
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whereismymind86
Oh he crossed that line weeks ago. If not months ago. He better be damn sure we never take power again, because his ass has committed a LOT of felonies in recent weeks.
Shawnthegirl
I predict it won't happen till the next election is supposed to happen and doesn't.
woobniggurath
Medicare and SS
viva93
he's forgetting the dude who put him in power was elected by the people after an attempted coup 4 years ago. There isn't a line for them. If there is then they're very happy to keep moving it further and further away.
MyBigMouth
"Bars" don't mean anything in America, if they did changes to gun laws would've happened after the first school shooting, yet here we are.
DarthVaderDidNothingWrong
It's only treason if it's coming from grass fed, free range Americans. Otherwise it's just sparkling sabotage.
HeHeHebieJeebies
That's the secret cap... only the 95% have to follow the laws.
PleasantPeasantPheasant
Overextendeddullard
The line was crossed on J6
bourbonandbaddecisions
He’s unelected and illegally appointed to a position with no oversight. So the time is now.
v
kurvarVillain
We've wanted his head for years.
matshelge
Be the luigi you wish to see.
bolinotoyou
Maybe start (subversive action here) Tesla dealerships
Kreviathan
ICE raiding and kidnapping actual American citizens should have been the line. But we're disenfranchised cowards. I'm ashamed of my fellow Americans for electing and enabling this, my representatives for failing to keep this at bay, and myself for being unwilling to leave my lifestyle to try and make real change.
CrownPrincessAzula
Our military doesn't honor their protect against domestic threats oaths. If they did, trump would have faced the wall during his first term. We've long crossed the line.
RealEpoona
"the revolution will not be televised"
Richter12x2
Just putting it out there that if we sentenced Musk to life and divided his wealth among everyone with a social security number, the boost to the economy would be absolutely ridiculous
DonL9
We're past that point but the people in charge and Congress won't do fuck all about it. They're all complicit in the coup and the massive grift.
5omeWhiteGuy
I didn't even need to scroll down to know someone would be blaming the dems they didn't vote for for the crazy shit trump and musk are doing.
SteveMND
If there ever WAS a theoretical line, we surely would have passed it a LONG time ago.
Remember when Trump said, "I could stand in the middle of Fifth Avenue and shoot somebody, and I wouldn't lose any voters" ...?
At the rate we're going, in a few weeks we'll be where he can amend that to "I sent thousands to a crematorium against their will, and I didn't lose any voters."
Aurzyerne
It will take an extreme amount of pain -be it physical or financial- for the stupid people to wake up. Even then, there are going to be some going to their deathbeds denying reality. Remember when covid was in full swing? Idiots screaming about "FREEDUHHM!"when asked to take *basic* fucking precautions, morgue trucks, thousands dying each day? Yeah, that's what we're still dealing with.
The line is, in my estimation, a loooong fucking way from here.
DiracsDelta
As a more optimistic (and in other ways pessimistic) take, we are sitting on an economic house of cards. We are overdue for a massive crash and likely recession (market valuation is like 200% of GDP). If the shift comes it will come because of financial pain, and the playing field is set.
RARusk
There is no line. These people will literally die before they will ever admit they were wrong on anything. No amount of personal pain will change that. They will simply blame anybody and anything else other than themselves, always. We saw this during the pandemic. It's only going to get worse now.
Gin2ki
When Elon has gone too far? That's long passed. Even before he heiled on stage, but you mericans just keep doing nothing about it as seems to be the norm these days.
LittleAzie
The best we can do is lawsuits, protests, and contacting congressional representatives (at this time besides working on getting supporters to wake up). An armed mob would be put down fast with all the security around him right now and all the others enabling fascism. Unfortunately, until enough people wake up this is what we are looking at.
painstream
American people doing nothing is pretty much the normal, sadly. The number that passively or actively sit out of elections is proof of it.
ThrowAwayAcct0000
My mom yesterday told me that we need to hear both sides of things that are happening right now. That is, one side has actual Nazis on it, and my mom thinks we should hear them out because they might reduce some govt spending. If I could have reached through the phone to strangle her, I might have tried.
taez555
I think they're just waiting for the post-concentration camp era. I'm sure the democrats will possibly consider a strongly worded letter before then though.
EroticZombiePants
They are too busy packing up to go to the camp voluntarily when they have their grand opening.
5omeWhiteGuy
Never miss a chance to complain about the people actually trying to block the power grabs. Be sure to get all those internet points to feel like you are doing something.
taez555
I'm actually kinda surprised I'm getting upvoted. Usually when I criticize the democrats for being milquetoast and weak when it comes to fighting the Maga-nazis, I get downvoted. Must be a full moon or something.
EroticZombiePants
I'm not above calling out the Democrats for being wimpy pushovers. I mean part of how we got to this point is because they've been letting the Republicans repeatedly walk over them my entire life. Remember that most of what we've gotten after the Civil Rights Act was through court rulings and not through legislation.
taez555
Yup. Even with a qualifier that the GOP is pure nazi evil, and I'll never vote or have voted for them, it's a shame Imgur(and much of the on-line echo chamber) takes such offensive to valid criticisms of the democratic party.
wandermanspacebot
Y'all can't even vote at any decent percentage. Believe me, no one in power is worried about the ambiguous "action" you might take.
ikewulf
They sure got pretty damn worried about Luigi. One CEO down, terrorism charges. Dozens of school kids or people at a grocery store or in a theater, not terrorism.
wandermanspacebot
They increased security details. There's your result. Nothing of value to the average person. Voting inarguably produces more tangible policy results.
Sironagold
Sounds to me like they need to be reminded to worry. The French way. You know the one.
SpaceballsTheComment
There's actually two. The more modern French approach is to burn the whole thing, because you now have to work until you're 64.
wandermanspacebot
Sure, but that's my point: they won't be because people are too lazy to even fucking participate in an enormously important election. These people aren't helping erect guillotines lol
Sironagold
There are people who voted. Those people building guillotines would be a sight now wouldn't it. But I was actually suggesting the more modern French way of actually threatening the bottom line of corporations with violent riots.
wandermanspacebot
Sounds good. I'll believe it when I see it though. Americans' civil engagement is pathetic. I'm been a voter for 25 years and they've disappointed me every one of them.
merxman
I mean, to a point, yes, and I am plenty mad at them and the people who voted for Trump. But it's not AS big as it seems. I too wish /1
merxman
Participation was 100%. But of the 90m who didn't vote, huge chunks are in states where their voting - one way or the other - is seen /2
merxman
As immaterial to the outcome because of the Electoral College.
wandermanspacebot
Those people voting is what turns a red state purple. It's slow and takes time, but the fact is polling and voting patterns strongly influence which direction each party takes, which in turn affects policy making and even shifts at the national level.
evilspock
Two weeks ago. I'd say the Treasury department stunt crossed the line, and I'm a bit disappointed that whatever guards were on duty that day didn't shoot him and his crew dead. What is the point of security that doesn't secure shit?
lightfoot2
Good question.
fireclanninja1337
Clearly he showed up with a hardhat and clipboard.
ilikepot8os
Because they fired the head of the agency and replaced them with a Trump 'yes man' and so their Boss (or Boss's Boss or Boss's Boss's boss...) said Do this or be fire. They may have been fired but eventually would have found someone who would.
skullmommy
I’m former IT and would have never let them near my servers! At the very least the root passwords would have all been changed and I’d never give them up!
evilspock
I'm also in that realm, and yes - physical access for the fed should be cages in secure buildings with armed guards, and even if you get physical access you don't have logins or the MFA tokens (and and the drives are all encrypted). Backups are encrypted offsite.
It really makes me wonder if the fed is anywhere close to modern security standards internally. We jump thru so many hoops for FEDRAMP, and their own security is floppies in a shoebox.
Etherealvalentine
Dude the entire industrial military complex runs on Windows XP. They are definitely NOT serious about security. Banks are more serious about it than the US government.
evilspock
Heh. I've done banks too. Some are ultra secure. And some... are very not. Not as in "here's an excel spreadsheet with every user and their ATM cardnumber and their PIN in plaintext".
I shit you not.
But you're probably right. It explains a lot. I'm not mad - just disappointed. We rely entirely too much on trusting people do the right thing.
nesurame
That's not true! The program I used for military acquisition required us to run Win95
kd7uns
As someone who has done dev work for several financial institutions, that's terrifying, but not surprising.
schrodingerscatfood
If no one protests, then the others assume everyone is okay with it. Stop being passive already.
ilikepot8os
Protests don't work man. Never have, never will. Doubly so for fascists. Largest protests in the world were against the invasion of Iraq (part 2) and we still went in there long enough that Father and Son could serve in the same base.
schrodingerscatfood
You gotta resist, or be a disgrace to your kind.
Froggie243
We are learning to resist. We didn't have to before, not meaningfully anyway.
zafner
Agreed. My first protest was last week. My second protest will be next week. But we have to do more
PlanckEraWasMyBestEra
Same on both counts!
Ilikeflufflyanimalpics
My first ever protest was last week, my second was yesterday. I am a shy pacifist introvert and I dragged my ass out there and will keep dragging my ass out there.
allenvasher3000
Yeah but protest only work if there is pressure coming from places that they care about, the project 2025, even says that the public is going to get restless. They planned for this.
Deathcameawienering
The public needs to get violent
schrodingerscatfood
It goes in stages, and must get time to build momentum. The first protests will be kinda on the small side, but later ones grow bigger.
allenvasher3000
But, they don't care about the pressure, & even if they did, they will just send in the National Guard & declare the protesters terrorist
jackal696
Thats when you guys know your now in a civil war.
PlanckEraWasMyBestEra
I don't like this response but I unfortunately don't think it's wrong either.
Easykehl
I think it hinges on if/when Trump does something that the Supreme Court calls unconstitutional, and openly ignores them. Then if he’s not quickly impeached, it’s officially tyranny and we’ll see violence or military coup.
As long as the Constitution holds, most people will watch them wrecking the country to vote again in two years.
Honestly, best case scenario is no Constitutional crisis in the next two years but things get so painful that the GQP gets wrecked in midterms, then impeachment.
LittleAzie
Honestly, I think they are waiting for an impeachment until his last two years, so that Vance can try for 10 years as president per the current term limits. They know they do not have enough support to pass an extension of the term limits at this time (even if they are trying).
bittenicht39
You already are in the middle of a Constitutional crisis RIGHT NOW. Trump and Musk change and remove monetary allocations - budget decisions are the domain of Congress and Congress only, not of the executive branch. Why wait?
PocketCleric
Hes already been umleaches, twice whats the point if it holds no consequences
ThrowAwayAcct0000
It's so strange to me that a person is even capable of becoming president again after being impeached. But it was also a big shock to me that being impeached didn't seem to stop or actually do anything. When he was impeached and nothing happened to kick him out of office, I pretty much lost my faith in democracy as a viable form of government.
merxman
Because he wasn't convicted. Because Republicans are spineless toadies.
EroticZombiePants
Can we really even say the Constitution is holding now when SCOTUS effectively ruled the President is above the law? Our forefathers went to great lengths to minimize the President's power as much as possible to prevent him from declaring himself King.
Easykehl
SCOTUS has eliminated legal liability of the President, but the checks on his power (impeachment by Congress and judicial rulings) are (so far) intact, albeit weakened by political alignment.
SCOTUS has (and hopefully will continue) to curtail Trump’s efforts that are clearly illegal even if they defer to him on areas that have any sort of legal wiggle room.
Impeachment could come into play if Trump does something(s) that tank his popularity enough to get even diehard MAGA against him.
echonite
Id say we need to see that the supreme court no longer has power, as in the separation of powers is gone and it is all with one group/branch/person, AKA, Trump. The supreme court siding in favor of trump isnt inharently there yet. So yeah, its when trump assumes himself above them and denounced the supreme court.
SonOfScubaSam
But he'll never have to do that if they are in his pocket (they are). Soooo...never, then, I think is what you're implying?
echonite
Didn't imply that at all. As it stands thry likely think they have power and it's really only a matter of time before Trump tries to take over their role in some way.
SonOfScubaSam
I see, I see. I wish I could agree with you, but I doubt they'd "bite the hand that feeds" so to speak, even if his actions become even more outrageous and criminal than they already are. But who knows, maybe one of these powers that be will grow some backbone one day, and we can see how your theory pans out.
hellothisispeggy
"As long as the Constitution holds" due to his insurrection attempt on j6th he is legally prohibited from holding office as per the 14th amendment.
Moonthatspellsmoon
No, he's not. The 14th only prohibits future election of individuals convicted of Treason, officially defined as aiding or giving comfort to America's enemies **in times of war**. Since Congress had made no declaration of war against our enemies, Trump is not guilty of treason. Is he a big traitorous piece of shit? Absolutely. Are he and his allies fascist authoritarian fuckheads who need to be removed? 100%. But he's not yet committed treason
FrolickingFrolicking
Your comment literally made those details up. Where did you hear these lies, or did you accidentally make it up as a rationalization?
- Constitution CLEARLY says rebellion and insurrection
- Nothing to do with “war time” whatsoeever. - No it doesn’t say it needs a conviction.
- No it doesn’t say treason
- And no you didn’t even define treason correctly.
How does a person confidently state things that obviously false and easily researched.
hellothisispeggy
"Section 3 of the Fourteenth Amendment does not expressly require a criminal conviction, and historically,
one was not necessary" https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/LSB/LSB10569 There was also a big deal made a few months later of biden's poor ending of "The war in Afghanistan"....Which is another constitutional issue of us having wars without officially declaring so since WWII. We seem to have a habit of not ever bothering to fix such issues.
Easykehl
That’s only a violation of the constitution if he’s found guilty, either by the courts or by impeachment.
hellothisispeggy
Also apparently presidents are immune from all charges so he can't be convicted by the courts and they wouldn't impeach even after he sent an angry mob after them. Has he even turned over a dna sample like he's required to from his felony conviction? I can't find anything that says he has.
hellothisispeggy
"Section 3 of the Fourteenth Amendment does not expressly require a criminal conviction, and historically,
one was not necessary" https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/LSB/LSB10569 There was also a big deal made a few months later of biden's poor ending of "The war in Afghanistan"....Which is another constitutional issue of us having wars without officially declaring so since WWII. We seem to have a habit of not ever bothering to fix such issues.
Easykehl
There’s been recent, and highly relevant, addition to the case law since that was published: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_v._Anderson
FrolickingFrolicking
That ruling was bullshit. The constitution is perfectly clear.
hellothisispeggy
IIUC basically the supreme court said the states can't, only congress can and congress CBA to even consider it.
lightfoot2
When Trump got elected in 2016 I wrote down a list of things that would make me renounce the Republican party forever. To set a limit. And when the RNC openly supported a child molester in 2018 I looked at the list, nodded my head as I said "support child molesters" and never looked back (yes, I believed the only way was to change the RP from within, that though was my breaking point)
katolu
If you supported the Republican party after Reagan you are a continuing part of the problem. Fuck this "never Trump" bullshit.
DukeDarkwood
I was no Republican in the first place, but when he was elected in 2016, I, although skeptical, said "I'll give him the Hundred Days treatment; maybe he'll surprise me."
The only surprise was how FAST he proved my skepticism right; he had at least five dealbreakers in his first week alone. Dealbreakers as in, any ONE of them would have been enough to spoil my "give him a chance" stance.
PeaceBaby
I didn't make a list, but I saw quickly that Republicans were going to let Tr do whatever he wanted. I decided to never choose a Rep over a Dem again unless the Dems somehow managed to be worse than them.
johnspeck2
For most sane people it was openly admitting to sexually assaulting women. However you have dipshit women that exist and even though they couldn’t stand to be in the same room as the sexist pig, they vote for him.
sirava
There was a time where they were changeable from within so I don't think you were wrong. Thst boat sailed unfortunately.
ThrowAwayAcct0000
Have any organizations ever changed from within to something better? I'm not being facetious, I honestly want to know. Can anyone name a company, political party, church, etc, that has gotten better to others over the years because of internal changes, and not because they were legally forced to?
sirava
The bigger they are the harder it is. I can think of some small volunteer organizations I was involved with that changed for the better with people demanding new leadership. The Republican Party got way worse with the tea party movement, but in a lot of ways that was astroturfed. It would be a lot more likely if we had more than two parties.
lovehandlesmessiah
I’m getting the impression that MANY of them are child molesters, gay or straight, and the kompromat for either Trump or Putin is what keeps them in line. Epstein’s death alone makes it plausible, because prisons are full of pederasts. Mere wealth and power aren’t enough to justify what we are seeing but rather, “either you do what we tell you or release this footage which is so damning you’ll eat a bullet.”
gobblinal
I dunno man, if your bar for "I don't like this person/group" is "child molesters" I think you are already setting it WAY too low.
ThrowAwayAcct0000
It's what made me finally stop being Catholic after 30 years of it.
lightfoot2
No, it was one of the bars of "there is no way I can salvage these people". Different.
gobblinal
That's fair. Totally different. Definitely points out that these people should be scrapped as salvage. Good for the trees.
lightfoot2
Point of this is to encourage Trump supporters to write a list of things that would make them drop support for him. No matter how outlandish, how out there, have them write a list and keep it with them. Because if they refuse they are saying there is NOTHING Trump could do that would cause them to lose support and you know they are truly and completely lost as human beings.
Starlatan
Unfortunately, this requires them to think critically and form original thoughts, something most if not all of them lack. I'd say all by now
Froggie243
The problem is the sanewashing. My father in law is a rabid patriot and also a rabid trump supporter. He's spoken out against nazis before, without prompting, but he's totally blind thanks to the talk show hosts and whatnot that he voted gleefully for nazis.
lightfoot2
That's why one has to write it down. It's so easy to rationalize changes in one's mind and rewrite one's past values if they are just kept in your head. Writing it down gives you something real and concrete. Even if you burn it, you're acknowledging it existed.
TheOnlyPtylerdactyl
This is good. Identifying "where is the line" establishes the *existence* of a line, and if they make excuses, they know - if only in their own minds - that they're hypocrites. In any case, glad to have you.
denimdaddy
I applaud this and wish more people (trump supporters and otherwise) would commit to all their conviction. I see the biggest problem with trump supporters is they are in a cult and just like any other cult you don't realize you're in the cult or how to get out because you're unaware of just how bad things are. Some do eventually figure it out but for most they're way too deep and never see the light
ontarioOT
I think it's obvious by now that most of them don't have a line and they are, as you say, lost causes.
CanIGetSomeExtraSalt
are we doing pitchforks and torches?.. just asking because what if a guy were to already have lit his torch, can he keep it lit?
Ultratoxic
We've got guns and drones now.
livingonagiantfireball
No we are in the era of shooting aircraft wings at take off with long range rifle when musk is in it
DejDek
Nah. Oil your guns and sharpen your knives.
We’re going to be aiming for center mass and slitting throats of every single one we find.
Cycocidal
Ah fuck. I oiled my knife and sharpened my gun.
DejDek
Baron Redheart approved this approach
ArchMagos
Just make sure it isn't a tiki torch
alienstomper
Use it to light more
GrowinWildontheFunnyFarm
I don't have a pitchfork, but the jars for cocktails are coming along swimmingly. Lemme know when happy hour begins.
allenvasher3000
Well he has already employed mercs, so if you are coming for him you better have something better then touches & pitchforks
CanIGetSomeExtraSalt
we have tacos too!
DunnowForgot
The French invented dedicated tooling for this.
KiddR78
Imma head to Costco to get a 5 pack of pitchforks. If anyone gets the value pack of torches, maybe we can share resources.
MartianWeasel
Get to the back of the Mob!
WrongUn
But this is my spot, I've been here all day!
spittytrinkles
The vast majority will do as they usually do. Bitch and moan about it, while simultaneously adapting to and accepting it.
ProcrastinatingWork
whatever it takes
FetaForMoses
Pitchforks are A OK, but torches have kind of been appropriated by the Nazis, sooo we’d probably go with Molotov Cocktails? Or maybe sprinklers.
CanIGetSomeExtraSalt
KYGELL91
hannahbutnotreally
Aw, I miss Norm.
iguessihaveto
Fabulous scene in a shitty, shitty movie
JeremyPeevin
Honestly the Animal and The Hot Chick get a lot of hate but they aren't as bad as people say. Just my opinion. I know it's not a popular one.
L4dead2
I really enjoy the hot chick. I’ll watch the animal for something goofy but not one of my first picks
jesuisgur
What was it ? That scene rings a bell but I can't remember the name...
PepeLePewLooneyTunes
The Animal, 2001
hipifreq
*scraping noises* Sure, you can keep your torch lit *scraaaaape* I'm already sharpening my pitchfork *scraaaaape* We're just waiting on the carpenters to finish with the guillotine
DarkBusterBaron
I propose instead of a guillotine we use a woodchipper and tie the billionaires to each other with rope so they automatically get pulled in.
Cycocidal
Wouldnt the wood chipper break the rope?
DarkBusterBaron
It would shred the rope but not until after the billionaire gets dragged along with it.
CanIGetSomeExtraSalt
our plan is coming together nicely!
smoldix42069
Guys hear me out. Y'all are gonna be hungry during this so what if we setup food trucks too?
CanIGetSomeExtraSalt
Tacos! a portable tasty meal. how about a Biergarten?
smoldix42069
Idk what that is but it sounds delicious so we'll add it to the list too!
sapphsquatch
Until the vast majority of Americans get SO uncomfortable they no longer have ways to decompress and escape (you know, the whole bread and circuses) we won't see a major push for change. Not the kind we need. There is work being done, but one side is playing by rules and the other is trying to remove the rules.
TheobromineAddict
One side is using rules to cripple the other side.
doctorId
I keep saying, there won't be a revolution til enough people get to the point where they have nothing to lose. As long as most people have scraps to cling to they'll allow just about anything to happen so long as they can keep the scraps.
GreatWhiteNorthEh
Widespread food insecurity is what will cause it. Then the first bread riots start and everything unravels.
ThrowAwayAcct0000
We had lines at food banks the last time Trump was in office too.
Bhargo
yeah because the food banks had food, they wont this time.
dankymang
I think that time will be coming up sooner than anyone believes it is.
whereismymind86
unfortunately so, the trump admin keeps flirting with crossing the kinds of red lines that might trigger that, and we are only a few weeks in.
ThrowAwayAcct0000
Honestly, I hope so. I'm so tired of my country declining, and the sooner it falls, the sooner we can start rebuilding something better.
KatInTheCorner
I think it's also that folks understand we are going to need to stand up against incredibly violent cops and the biggest military in the world. We can't just have a big peaceful protest and get this over with. It's going to turn bloody and people don't want to be the first in line, and it's entirely rational to be scared of that.
nalmeth
We wouldn't have to stand against the military. At least not all of it. Many in the armed forces would never attack citizens, regardless of what big baby says.
KatInTheCorner
I would agree with you if we were talking about old-fashioned war, person against person. These days they only need a few people with drones in air-conditioned rooms miles away.
The military is going to need to fight against itself and that's a whole other ballgame.
whereismymind86
that'll happen when it becomes clear we can't wait this out, when trump defies the courts on something big, like running for a third term, or tries to suspend the midterms or 2028 election. People are docile because they feel they can just hunker down for four years and things will go back to normal. If that changes, the American people are going to freak the fuck out, and things will get scary quickly.
whereismymind86
it's the old jfk quote "those who make peaceful change impossible, make violent revolution inevitable"
Buffoonery
That's the short, ugly, bloody and simple answer. When I started college in the mid 70's, my dad used to say, "you young people should start a revolution and get rid of all the corruption". He was speaking of Nixon and Spiro T, mostly. I agreed with him on principal. However, I said at the time, "As long as the average American has enough food, a place to live and isn't freezing to death, nothing that drastic will ever happen". I still belief that to be the case. Now, one of the pressure 1-of-2
Buffoonery
2-of-2) relief valves is social media. Many of us feel some sense of accomplishment or just plain satisfaction by up-voting a clever come-back or commenting on the Orange Ignoramus. I think this daily release keeps most of us from losing our collective shit. Maybe it's healthy. Maybe it delays the ultimate consequences for the crimes already committed. I'll be in the streets, if it comes to that. I just can't run as fast anymore.
kashflow
Unpopular opinion but without sporting events more people would protest.
whereismymind86
I mean...that's literally the point of sporting events. They are the circuses in "bread and circuses" Back in the day it was actual circuses, public executions or gladiatorial combat in the coliseum, but the principle is the same.
kashflow
Agree. But for me it was kind of an epiphany during the BLM protests (and heck even the Jan 6 insurrection) that they happened when people couldn't get their anger out watching sports.
samwyze
The people will put up with a lot of shit, as long as they have their treats.
barstr7
It's not that unpopular an opinion. There's a giant Roman ruin that underscores it pretty well.
nesurame
a fun fact about that ruin is that it's not a ruin. The reason it looks like its fallen apart is because post-Roman folks scavenged materials from the Colosseum for their own structures. Heck, you can see marks from the structural copper fittings being pried from the structure... which seems like an apt metaphor for the current USA situation.
michaeloberg
*hundreds* of coliseums, there are more outside of Italy than in, because of how huge the Roman empire was
Catheren
One side is playing by the rules because those rules matter to a functional society, and if both sides break them the rules cease to be- destroying the chance at a functional society. Yeah, it's hard to fight people breaking the rules when you don't have the authority to slap cuffs on them and throw them in jail (or other more useful methods of removal). Gods, there's an explanation for it somewhere but it's SO hard to put into words. Need more spaaace! 1/2
Bhargo
the problem occurs when you allow those rules to prevent you from stopping the people who are already destroying society. whats the point of sticking to these rules if it all collapses anyway? The rules are a social contract and to imply that we need to follow them when fighting a group that refuses to follow them is absurd and will only end in defeat.
LuminoZero
Remind me how 'operating inside the rules' worked to dislodge the Nazis from Germany?
It doesn't, only blood removes fascists, and the longer you delay the more it takes. If Biden had taken it seriously, we could have stopped this with the blood of a few dozen. Now? It'll take thousands. Next year? Probably an order of magnitude more.
Catheren
Basically we can't just decide: "Okay rules no longer matter, we're all going to break the rules to fix this problem and then we're just going to go back to everyone abiding the rules again! Okay? Okay!" That's not how it works, that's NEVER what happens. The rules matter, and the loopholes and exploits in them need CLOSED. If we don't have rules to abide to, we can't rebuild ANY functional system and we just collapse into lawyers fighting over power. Does that make sense? 2/2
idrinkcheapbeer
In the 90s, my views and outlook were deemed too far left. now in the mid 2020s, being the same exact person with the same exact ideals can easily be deemed as not far enough left and part of the problem. It's impossible to feel good about my lifetime.
tbmchristopher
Thank you for putting it succinctly; this has been on my mind for a while now.
Bhargo
we are already at that point, you are avoiding nothing by hamstringing yourself.
Catheren
Alright, how do you want them stopped? Really lay it out for me. What practical thing do you think the pencil pushing lawyers should be doing right now that won't get them IMMEDIATELY arrested, charged, and either jailed, deported, or executed as a terrorist by the security and law enforcement that has obeyed Trumps every whim? REALLY, I want to know what the ABSOLUTE FUCK you think they can do without being removed from the ONLY position of resistance we have in our government?
DonL9
Good points but the Dems have been operating with kid gloves. They need to take those gloves off and step right up to that line and roll up their sleeves and start getting aggressive.
Catheren
Oh with that I agree, it should have never gotten to this point. There's a good solid line between being thorough and letting the bastard interfere with proper investigations- and they missed it by a mile. I'm pissed about it, but I don't want them to join in the dismantling the rules. Put breifly: 1 Proves Rs ideologically right 2 opens them to obvious attack from Trump 3 cause power struggle 4 might do more harm than good. 5 Obvious false PR campaign about corruption in Dems by R-media.
ilikepot8os
I understand your point, but I would counter that if one side is openly flaunting and breaking the rules, and the other side is effectively doing nothing, then the rule of law has already ceased to exist. The "They go low, we go high" rode is exactly how we got here.
And it's worse than that now. They are effectively making 'rules' that we aren't allowed to stop them. So you can either stop them, or follow the rules. But not both.
sapphsquatch
This.
Catheren
Alright, how do you want them stopped? Really lay it out for me. What practical thing do you think the pencil pushing lawyers should be doing right now that won't get them IMMEDIATELY arrested, charged, and either jailed, deported, or executed as a terrorist by the security and law enforcement that has obeyed Trumps every whim? REALLY, I want to know what the ABSOLUTE FUCK you think they can do without being removed from the ONLY position of resistance we have in our government?
Catheren
Alright, how do you want them stopped? Really lay it out for me. What practical thing do you think the pencil pushing lawyers should be doing right now that won't get them IMMEDIATELY arrested, charged, and either jailed, deported, or executed as a terrorist by the security and law enforcement that has obeyed Trumps every whim? REALLY, I want to know what the ABSOLUTE FUCK you think they can do without being removed from the ONLY position of resistance we have in our government?