Confusedcultist
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Source: La Source des Femmes (2011)
Literally everything she said is historically accurate though the concept of “hijab” existed long before Islam was founded. in pre islamic arabia and throughout the region, women regardless of religion would cover their hair and it was often a symbol of class (other than the concept of covering hair being cultural in christianity and judaism)
Women who were higher class and were from a wealthy family covered their hair to distinguish themselves from poorer classes.
It wasn’t until after the founding of Islam where covering hair was incorporated into Muslim culture as “hijab”. there is no mention of hijab in the Quran but there is a strong emphasis on modesty. there is however an explicit line in the Quran directed towards men:
In Chapter 24 known as an-Nur (the Light), in verse 30, Allah commands Prophet Muhammad as follows:
قُلْ لِلْمُؤْمِنِيْنَ يَغُضُّوْا مِنْ أَبْصَارِهِمْ وَ يَحْفَظُوْا فُرُوْجَهُمْ, ذَلِكَ أَزْكَى لَهُمْ.
“Say to the believing men that: they should cast down their glances and guard their private parts (by being chaste). This is better for them.”
This is a command to Muslim men that they should not lustfully look at women (other than their own wives); and in order to prevent any possibility of temptation, they are required to cast their glances downwards. This is known as “hijab of the eyes”.
I'm not a Muslim myself, but i try to understand it and do more, than just to "tolerate" it. And there seems to be Muslims, who have a misconception about their own Religion.
Just rising awareness people.
Nice little site for Islam knowledge: https://www.al-islam.org/
(Psst! First time poster!)
EDITH: HOLY MOLEY! Frontpage? With first post? Ummmmmmm, what to type? This is totally unexpected. What? Uh, send cats? No. Send dogs? No. Send nudes? By all hells no! Send Trumps? By all Gods in existence, no! Send recipes! Yes, easy and yet cultural food recipes! Like Shakshuka! I like good food.
Edith Again: Holy crab! This is getting way out of control. And this is my first post. How should i keep this quality up in the future posts? ANYWAY, some seem to misinterpret this post. I'm not aiming at the Hijab of the Women alone, but also at the Muslim men, who are using the "No Hijab, no problem!" argument. Self-control is a virtue in Islam and Christianity, so, GO FIGURE!
EmmyCee
Except that there are LOTS of slaves still. In America alone, 300,000 children are lured into commercial sex trade each year. That's just US
Nova225
I think we're talking about the more legally accepted kind...
TheBlueMorpho
Muhfuckingodzilla
"Just rising awareness people" did anyone else read this in an Australian accent?
BadImgurer
The glorious quality.
roorooter
This GIF is not halal.
Abibyama
Don't worry it's alcohol free
mySweetAnus
Commenting for no other reason than to appreciate your username. Damn right, Venture Brothers. :)
Confusedcultist
Damn straight, mate!
TheBlueMorpho
drflang
I love your name! its about the butterfly right?
TheBlueMorpho
Confusedcultist
Not the butterflies! NOT THE BUTTERFLIES!
ZachlSHJGQFUYASDG
no slaves huh yea you keep telling yourself that
BeRad117
If the people following the religion aren't following that interpretation of that book, then unfortunately it means nothing.
sam001101
i believe that a lot of people don't actually read the book or learn from it. rather just blindly accept info that others tell them
BigSnicker
Sure, but it's exactly the same for all religions. That's how you get 100 versions of Christianity, from the Pope to massacring armies.
cesarnero
yep most of them(non-arabs) know how to pray in arabic BUT they dont know the translation.thats where radical imam get it.
sam001101
In Islam, seeking knowledge is a HUGE virtue. people are told to learn about their religion, look at the logic, ask questions etc. but (1/2)
sam001101
(2/2) someone just reading in arabic and not reading translations/asking credible religious leaders are doing themselves a disservice
LettucePrime
As was said of the Taliban who shot Malala Yousafzai when the Qu'ran vindicates her cause.~
LettucePrime
~As a general rule, NO adherent of any Abrahamic religion at ANY stage in the radicalism spectrum gives a shit what their book says.~~
LettucePrime
~~This is for better sometimes, for worse some others. Pastors, Imams and Rabbis need to be analyzed, not the universally discarded texts.
PompatusOfLove
No veil?? What's next, driving?
CantComeUpWithACreativeUsername
No, but flying planes is ok http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-news-from-elsewhere-27125689
abidikgubidik
only for hajj, though
abidikgubidik
/s
Jaboticaba
Clitorectomies. Honor killings. Proper educations. Being able to leave the house without being accompanied by a male relative.
Ragnarstark89
oh my allah!
ImpossiblyStrangeStranger
No woman ,No drive ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZMbTFNp4wI
reinerdefender
Obligatory M.I.A. video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2uYs0gJD-LE
ToxicMolluscinity
or try on clothes when shopping??? *clutches pearls* *looks askance at Saudia Arabia*
iSoulend
well, better that than driving with a veil on
TurnedOff
Don't veil and drive, kids
supremebossman
Do you wanna get stoned to death because thats how you get stoned to death.
Cicirawr
ToxicMolluscinity
Too late. *grabs rock*
Blastergv9
Women are still essentially slaves in a lot of muslim countries
SoLongSaulGood
more poor countries persecute the shit out of their women its not exclusive
OfficialSponsor
All these replies to your comment totally deflect the fact aside and present alternatives. Obvious logical fallacy is obvious
CantComeUpWithACreativeUsername
As in the past with Christianity, there are attempts to use scripture to justify oppressive behaviour, after the fact.
BanesOnAPlane
It was wrong then and it's wrong now. Islam shouldn't be an exception just because another religion did it in the past.
CantComeUpWithACreativeUsername
Agreed
CluelessLurker
It's a pattern in a lot of third world countries and not exclusive to Muslim ones. Culture promotes this kind of behavior not Islam.
LemmiwinksKingofGerbils
Islam is part of culture
Rapiecage
am from 3rd world country, you're full of shit
Winndypops
No idea where you are from, I am sure you personally are fine but much of the world is still primitive and rotten, there is evil out there.
TheToll
Have nothing to do with "third world countries", look at the gulf states and how women are treated there.
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BanesOnAPlane
Careful, you don't want to be called an Islamophobe for telling the truth
WhiteOthello
I imagine this film was not well received in the Middle East
LemmiwinksKingofGerbils
Its an argument against the veil. The vast majority of middle eastern populations don't wear veils.
WhiteOthello
I was referring more to how it showed a woman standing up for herself
TheAnswerIsTheMoops
Bravo! She was never seen again.
krapmyself
And then she was stoned to death.
BigSnicker
Yep, just like the biblical version.
samguy344
I know that you mean well and I understand your message but women in Islam HAVE to wear the hijab regardless of whether or not it (1/2)
samguy344
Separates them from slaves https://www.al-islam.org/hijab-muslim-womens-dress-islamic-or-cultural-sayyid-muhammad-rizvi/quran-and-hijab (2/2
coolbandana
Thankyou
jellybeanoverdose
Yeah, you're in the same patriarchal, misled boat as her son. No, women DO NOT HAVE TO wear the hijab. You need the same harangue as her son
LemmiwinksKingofGerbils
I'm pretty sure he agrees with her on principle, but her islamic scholarship is wrong. Besides, she speaks about the veil. He said hijab
GentlemanGoldfish
He's basing his claim on an article from the very source OP recommended, though..? I read it, and it seems to say that's a requirement.
Winndypops
They should not have to but they do within Islam. It is a broken, backwards faith that has no place in the 21st century.
piggystylez
realize that when lots of westerners talk about 'islam,' what they really mean is 'wahhabism.' There's 2b muslims on earth, only ~30m in SA
piggystylez
in many muslim countries religious law is not enforced, and a dozen have elected female heads of state
TheReboundGuy
female heads of state mean nothing. It's like saying racism doesn't exist in US because obama is president. Illogical bullshit argument.
piggystylez
the point is that speaking of 'women in islam' as though they're all suffering saudi-style oppression is stupid as hell
piggystylez
it's like claiming jehova's witnesses are representative of all christians
DaisyfromDownunder
Ha ha ha - the bit about no slaves anymore.
hstein3
Does the veil show up in the hadiths? Just saying it's not in the Qur'an is a tad disingenuous.
pancakeisi
Yeah. Look up Satr
hstein3
I know it does. The point was that OP seems to be neglecting that in this post.
MyNameIsJohnDaker
Are you kidding me with that title?
CutOutTheFuckery
Irony = American women using their freedom to rock a garment that millions are forced to wear.
drakeii
guys hijab is "mandatory" in islam , also....getting info about islam from non muslims isnt the best way to learn about islam.
cesarnero
the best source to learn is ex-muslim aka murtadin,or ex-muslim brotherhood aka Maajid Nawaz.
drakeii
still a nicer post than im used to tbh , posting here seems cool
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abronco15
what are you talking about?
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cesarnero
by "some" usualy mean 100million to 300miillion.
ArchDukeArchibald
Taqiyya is only to be used if a Muslims life is in danger die to being a muslim. i. e religious persecution
ArchDukeArchibald
Due *
drakeii
thats actually a misconception , toqiyya by this understanding is the shias toqiyya(radical minority less than 6% of muslims)
drakeii
about the texts , im not arguing the understanding ,but its half the text ; islams source is Quran and Sunna
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youcantproveit
Yeah, that's only like 120,000,000 people right?
Kompi
Youre right but the understanding is also wrong, taqiyya is if e.g. youre persecuted and have to pretend youre not muslim to not get killed
cesarnero
does not it confirm the idea,if a muslim belive in jihad agaist infadel but by believing that will cost his life then he should perfom that?
Kompi
If a muslim is deluded enough to believe in killing others, then I just think theyll hide it anyway whether justified or not 1/
brainsNballs
OP, that's a Shia website you're referring to, not mainstream Islam. Talk to real scholars man and don't make up your own conclusions
captainfantasticfasterthansupermantheflashandthehulkcombined
That's cool but this web comic thing doesn't change the reality of women being forced to wear them all over the world.
KTHRSS
It doesn't have to change it, it is to educate people.
DanjalVeskandar
Change always takes time, the more rooted a tradition the more time it takes. Just ask the monkeys about the banana on the ladder.
Iwillhaveoneofeverything
Movie! If nothing I hope it raises questions for a conversation.
ImpossiblyStrangeStranger
women should be free to wear whatever they want...even if they wanted to wear hijab because believe it or not..some do
captainfantasticfasterthansupermantheflashandthehulkcombined
Yes they should be free to choose but they often arent, which is my entire point.
Winndypops
And thank goodness that in the Western world we fight to defend women's right to chose, some women really do not want to wear it.
ImpossiblyStrangeStranger
It's the same in Muslims states except for the gulf..google pics of syrians lebanese Egyptians..people don't care too much about clothes
Confusedcultist
It's not a webcomic, its from a movie.
captainfantasticfasterthansupermantheflashandthehulkcombined
Okay, well this movie still doesn't change shit
Wolfmanwolf
OfficialSponsor
Ahhh, "Public Relations"
monkeymuffins
It's not uncommon for young Muslim women to go hijabless in Malaysia and Indonesia. They usually start wearing it after marriage. However...
monkeymuffins
The region has become significantly more religiously conservative since the 90s, and more girls are wearing it, even in primary school.
Winndypops
Everyone tries to push the 'Indonesia' meme as if it absolves Islam of all wrongs, one good nation does not stop the religion being cancer.
notanavocado
In what planet is Indonesia a good nation. It's corrupt as fuck and the shit going down in Aceh recently is absolutely horrific.
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LemmiwinksKingofGerbils
but it's a meme.
neil137
can anyone from Saudi Arabia et. all explain to us why this argument dosen't work?
seattlebust
Because they'll just pour acid down her throats and stone her as she dies.
HypnoticJiggles
A bold choice for a first post, but you knocked it out the park. Nice going
atimeforeeverything
Agreed!
mandadadada
Bravo, I have no words, thank you
JChilly
abidikgubidik
yup, it did
Confusedcultist
Definitely!
Kaemai
The obligation of hijab is a flowing garment that covers the body revealing only the face hands and feet, not a just a hair covering.
SederHishtalshelus
We know what it's for. But do you believe this woman does not have a point?
Kaemai
This post misunderstands a lot about Islam and the role of the Sunnah (the example of the prophet pbuh)(ex. How to pray is not in the Quran)
JonSAlberta
All good points but the weird 'control women with head covers thing' isn't limited to Islam:
theNameChecker
Point being? Fuck that. Fuck forcing half your population to restrictions and guidelines
Prunebane
AFAIK, christian women aren't forced to be nuns, so the head cover seems voluntary, in a way. Still, interesting observation.
Lilithet
I'm pretty sure that many of those are a fashion thing. I've seen Buddhist monkets in multiple countries, and they all go bald. Also 1/2
Lilithet
I'm fairly certain the Amish, Catholic/Orthodix, and Hindu are wearing those things more like a hat, though the Hindu may be a wedding gown.
Mockingbirb
Helping out with cat tax:
Confusedcultist
Thanks mate, that looks like good cat tax.
foxhoundunit89
A bold choice? This is fucking Imgur dude, who would downvote a woman's rights post? lmao
libtardis
someone supporting the paedophile Mohammed.
sombrerohorsewagon
Yeah but no cat tax - WTF
Confusedcultist
I am very sorry, like mentioned, first poster. It's hard to get the right cat tax.
Solivoid
I think you're mistaking Imgur with Tumblr.
CaliKamakazi
They're rapidly becoming similar.
foxhoundunit89
I don't think I'm the one doing that. I think 90% of the users are doing that and continuing like it's the same.
Solivoid
Indeed. I saw quite a few times people reply "So much this! I agree! I'm dead lmao!". Ugh.
foxhoundunit89
REPEAT THE PUNCHLINE IN ALL CAPS
Solivoid
That being said, saying nobody downvotes women's rights on this website is kinda funny, since imgur is also known for circle-bashing women.
foxhoundunit89
Depends on the time of day I think.
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BaBaDuuk
HypnoticJiggles
You can say that to any religion
MrFunbun204
I agree, all religion should be abolished. not even joking
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HypnoticJiggles
You do not seem so fun Mr. Funbun...
BaBaDuuk
Hes no fun at all. Just ignorant and hate filled. No reasonable reply to any responses made to have a discussion. Troll basically
Confusedcultist
Whoa guys, calm down! I don't want to see any hate here please.
HypnoticJiggles
I think we're having a reasonable enough discussion, me. Confusedcultist
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Some1OnceToldMe
Don't need to respond too much b/c this is just straight wrong. Plenty have.
HypnoticJiggles
I'll get some more articles if you want, but I think j this is an ignorant statement to say
BaBaDuuk
Why should they have to? Have you apologised for someone of your colour/creed/religion has done?
MrFunbun204
well seemingly all whites have to apologize for slavery for some reason and should feel guilty for being white
HypnoticJiggles
http://time.com/4112830/muslims-paris-terror-attacks-islam-condemn/
RosencrantzNGuildensternNeverLived
Are there a lot of dwarf muslims? Nice of them to be so vocal, have I just not seen them for they are smol?
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HypnoticJiggles
If .05 of your entire population was sick would you burn their families because of their disease?
MrFunbun204
I would cure them of the cause of the sickness
againstFAKEideals
not so; let's make a scientific experiment: we take a bible and quran and we burn them, then we wait for reactions.
HypnoticJiggles
I mean I'm not going to tell you how to live your life, but if you don't think every religion creates extremists you are very misinformed
againstFAKEideals
so, do you agree with this experiment ??? we just measure and conclude based on results.
Some1OnceToldMe
I agree! But I would need a control group. So 1 Vatican memver and 1 ISIS member first....
Some1OnceToldMe
and then 1 heavily Westernized Christian and 1 heavily Westernized Islamic follower to compare.
HypnoticJiggles
No I wouldn't agree with that experiment, mostly because all your trying to do is cause chaos just to point fingers on who would be worse...
againstFAKEideals
do you understand that the dogma you are defending has been forced upon people by sword ? what are you afraid to find ? that you are wrong ?
AngryBaboon
This has already been done. Results as expected. Nobody gave a shit about the bible, but lots told the dude (Youtube comments) to burn ...
AngryBaboon
... in hell for burning the Qur'an. Just look it up on youtube. This is going off of Youtube comments, but it's something.
Confusedcultist
Thank you, only the bold flourish as time and nature proved.
Randomgamerdude
I'm so sorry the comments are so cancer-inducing, though. I want to tell so many people they're assholes but can't do it well in 140 chars.
IHaveAMemeForThis
Fortune favors the bold my friend
OlivesAreDelicious
Audentes Fortuna iuvat
NahImmaJustGo
My first post was about a sick.
nate0520
stick win every time
Mobileuserwholikestoberandom
That was a sick Stick deal
NahImmaJustGo
Auto-cowreck strikes again.
BrieflySalmon
Mine is a toilet seat with poo on it.
NahImmaJustGo
Ooh that was pretty gross. +1 for it anyway.
MrZiddz
I edited some fucking terrible image macro of trevor when i was drunk at 3 am and had JUST discovered imgur =/.
NahImmaJustGo
Haha I thought it was funny! +1
MrZiddz
You are kind stranger, and generous.
NameNotVerified
+1 on your first post. Good-day sir!
NahImmaJustGo
I wasn't fishing for upvotes. Just pointing out my feeling of inadequacy compared to the OPs first post. Thanks nonetheless!
Confusedcultist
Why thank you, golly good sir!
Akillesursinne
Well, it doesn't help much with the fact that the book also says that people should cut the heads of off those who leave the faith. Derp!
seattlebust
NOT THE BEARD!!
brainsNballs
Really? Share the verse and it's interpretations from Muslim scholars. Or..u got that from some blogs?
Akillesursinne
" By Allah it is death!" This went on until the apostle made an end of them. " https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banu_Qurayza Mohammed kills jew
Akillesursinne
.. (fighting Jihad in Allah's Cause), those who disbelieve smite at their necks till when you have killed and wounded many of them.. 47:3-4
brainsNballs
Good you found the verse. What is its context?
Akillesursinne
So you mean a god would actually justify ever decapitating people? And like I said, Mohammed himself saw t othe killing of captives.
brainsNballs
Not answering my question. What is the context of the verse? Don't avoid it.
PoopertonUnit
She says all these things yet would still get in trouble if she took it off... Hmmmmm... Yeah Islam doesn't oppress women at all.
ThirtySix
Are you an idiot? It says right there in the post: it's the people not the religion
PoopertonUnit
I'm sorry but at this point, I have to say it's the other way around.
Svartlebee
So, Islam has nothing to say on homosexuality being a sin? I am sick of apologetics saying religion is perfect
abidikgubidik
Dude, Islam doesn't oppress women, dimwits misinterpreting Islam do
OfficialSponsor
Yea money doesn't cause power.....
Winndypops
I really hope that is an intricate joke that I am too drunk to understand. Islam is terrible to women, shit man I am so glad I am Catholic.
Winndypops
This meme that Islam is so nice to women needs to die, fast before more women suffer.
Confusedcultist
It's all in the context and depending on the Nation. Some are more relaxed than others. And yet, the women became slaves to the Religion.
PoopertonUnit
Of all the nations with Islamic government, 12 execute gays, and all oppress women by western standards.
ThePotatoBandit
And yet there are muslims in western counties, some born and raised that do none of those things.
Svartlebee
Yet they still hold those views. Some 80% of UK Muslims think homosexuality is a sin and they should be barred from certain employment.
ThePotatoBandit
Source? in my state build a Noah's Ark park with tax dollars, but in order to get a job there you had to denouce homosexuality.
davidsarif
Sounds like Christians in the UK in the recent past
IZ42
And if you go into the south in the us, you find very much the same thing from many christians
SPCFlack141
And that day she was stoned by the villagers and they all yelled and cheered.
Confusedcultist
Hey, you forgot to mention the ceremonial shaming and trial of old men with sexist view!
SPCFlack141
Who latter raped thier bozi boys in celebration
ThirtySix
Great post. I am a Muslim and I was not aware of this particular detail but I knew hijab wasn't mandatory. Thank you for this
felixofarabia
It is mandatory. It is mentioned in the Quran, in Chapter 24 verse 31
HasanShafiq11
Hijab for both men and women is as mandatory as the 5 times prayers are so It's a Fardh and it is infact mandatory
brainsNballs
Dude, lakum deenakum waliya deen. They're not here to understand. Heck imgur is not even the right platform to discuss
HasanShafiq11
this was a reply to the "muslim" who said hijab is not mandatory, gotta correct where we can right
JohnnyLawlessEsq
I'm of Middle-Eastern Christian descent, and my great aunts wore headscarves all their lives. It's a geo-cultural thing, not religious.
cesarnero
really you not aware of a particular detail of al-quran and you say you knew,KNEW!!!! show your body is a sin,wear a parfum is for whore.
draxxthemsklounst
Why the attitude? You're so angry. That can't be good for your health.
cesarnero
well those kind of people who did not know al-quran and pretend to know islam usualy join isis.
draxxthemsklounst
That really doesn't make any sense.
MillenialJesus
Hijab is mandatory, the differences are what the hijab entails. The Quran refers to the hijab in both a metaphorical and literal sense(1)
MillenialJesus
depending on the contexts. While a lot of what @OP posted is true, there are stille some inaccuracies.
jellybeanoverdose
The Quran didn't mention it. It isn't mandatory.
brainsNballs
Wow look a scholar
MillenialJesus
Yes it does. It also refers to women's clothing in other words, including khimar and jilbab.
IDeclareBANKRUPTCYYYY
Thank you so much. As a Muslim, this is the kind of objective and clear research I greatly appreciate from those who are not. You're great.
Svartlebee
Yet almost the entire Muslim world practices it.
Svartlebee
Who make up a minority of Islam and have practices considered heretical by Islam. Malaysian Islam is heavily influenced by native
SankingDragon
*Arab. It's an Arab custom, practiced much less in Asia and Oceania.
dionysiacc
That's inaccurate upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/16/Hijab.png
Svartlebee
2/ religion and Hinduism, and wss never conquered by sword, but converted by Sufi poets, a branch of Islam that is practically dead.
themuttonisniceandlean
I went to a Sufi school and I grew up thinking Sufis represented must Muslims. Nicest, most accepting people I've ever met.
Svartlebee
And yet most were killed off centuries ago. It's not that mainstream anymore and it never was to begin with.
tomyironmane
I usually figure it as "whatever, she's dressed nicer than the girls with their asses hangin out of their ratty jeans."
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ekzeko
Unfortunately you're better going down the liberal, emancipatory philosophy route. The Quran seems pretty clear on that topic.
RealMenHaveVaginas
All 4 madhhabs agree it's mandatory though
spoodermon
Hijab is mandatory but no one is allowed to force a woman to wear it and its her own decision the face cover is optional 1/2
spoodermon
and women wore them to protect their faces from the sand so some people mistook it as a part of the hijab
Znayx
How can something be mandatory but not enforced? If it's not enforced, then it's not mandatory. Tell me your definition of mandatory.
Flyswat
He meant mandatory in the sense that God asks us to do it, but it is not up to ppl to force someone to do it.
Confusedcultist
I'm happy to help. It's always worth, to check certain things from the religion, you never know, what you might learn.
brainsNballs
What a retard. So some guy reads from random blogs and have a say in Islam? Great, now read Talmud and make another post
CDRShepardN7
That's very, nice grammatical structure, that you have, there.
Legacies00
The hijab is mandatory no matter which way you look at it.
NotSoWittyUserName
Actually, I know muslim women who do not wear hijabs. It's not considered mandatory by EVERY person or culture.
ekzeko
The Quran states it is mandatory to cover the head & the bosom with a veil, as well as loose clothing. Not Muhammad, the actual quran. (1)
ekzeko
Word of god himself. So independent of time period. You can theologies, but you got to use the book.
Legacies00
The hijab is mandatory & is one of the basics of being a Muslim women. (1/2)
NotSoWittyUserName
Well, some people do things differently, which is not surprising given the way religious dogma varies between cultures and denominations.
Legacies00
The only reason they don't wear it is because either they're lazy or just want to show their hair. (2/3)
Legacies00
Most of them likely wore them as I child but through peer pressure, they stopped wearing it. (3/3)
NotSoWittyUserName
Yeah, I'm sure you are totally qualified to judge the character of people you've never met based on one single detail. Classy.
RealMenHaveVaginas
Hijab is mandatory like it is mandatory for men to cover from their belly to their knees. But in the Quran it tells men to lower their (1/2)
RealMenHaveVaginas
Gaze before telling women to cover their hair. So men shouldn't force it. Niqab(full veil) though is fully optional unlike the hijab
greenbeanraneen
Thank you!
jellybeanoverdose
It doesn't tell women to cover their hair. Don't make shit up.
RealMenHaveVaginas
Bruh https://www.al-islam.org/hijab-muslim-womens-dress-islamic-or-cultural-sayyid-muhammad-rizvi/quran-and-hijab
ThatFoodTruckGuy
"and not display their beauty except what is apparent." Meaning to only cover up that which people normally cover up. And the next part 1/?
abidikgubidik
Afaik, Quran says "cover up". I interpret that as "don't walk around naked"
Legacies00
"I interpret that" It doesn't matter how you interpret it's still mandatory.
abidikgubidik
So, it's mandatory not to walk around naked. OK, got it.
misterincroyable
Hijab is on no way shape or form mandatory. It is simply a reference of modesty. Yes I izzz muzlim
brainsNballs
So Islam belongs to you now?
youcantproveit
It is absolutely mandatory for many places unless you want fucking killed. Anywhere with fundamentalists, because of their interpretation.
warslinger
Culture vs the religion itself
strelokthecheekibreeki
I'm pretty sure he means Quran wise it's not mandatory, not government or culture wise.
sarrachaa
as another muslim, I can tell you that the hijab is in fact mandatory. although there is a difference in opinion among scholars if (1/2)
sarrachaa
covering the face is mandatory or not, they all still agree that the hijab is mandatory for women. (2/2)
existentialstew
Third Muslim: hijab is recommended, but is strictly a choice: if one doesn't want to wear hijab, don't force them to. Respect their choice.
misterincroyable
You're literally the reason people turn away from Islam. Stop imposing what's right and what's wrong. You are nobody. Drop the moral stick
BilalMitb
There are differences among the scholars of Islam. Some believe (which I follow) that the Hijab is mandatory. Some others don't. 1/?
BilalMitb
It's not black and white. Don't bash on others for what their beliefs are, unless you're willing to actively debate the topic with 2/3
brainsNballs
Islam is meant for people who want to submit to law and order.
ThirtySix
So many people on Imgur pretend like they know and understand the Quran and say without any doubt that it preaches so much hate...
snwballhded4hell
Because it does. The principle of abrogation means that earlier peaceful versions are nullified by the later violent verses.
AdamAz
Mate, its the Internet. So many fake/wahabi websites that aren't even run by Muslims, which these morons keep on quoting to spread hate.
AnatolianTiger
Exactly, thank you.
Kuvajainen
I've read both the Quran and the Bible and it's practically the same book in different covers. Same level of hate and horror.
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Kuvajainen
That said, I don't think it's the books that make some people to do terrible things. I don't see any good reason to hate muslims any more 1/
Kuvajainen
than hating christians. It's pointless. Just hate the evildoers regardless of their race or religion and cut the nonsense. 2/2
snwballhded4hell
So false
Kuvajainen
Have you actually read either of the books? I was raised as christian, reading the Bible was one of the reasons I grew up to be an atheist.
snwballhded4hell
Yes I have.
SyphonSmither
You should try liveleak.. that place strayed from the path far long ago
Hostileye
Unless something says what you think it has "strayed from the path" nice going.
Skornish
Imgur isn't the only place where people say that.
TrijezniMujo
I've read the damn tihng in two languages. Yes, it preaches hate. It's the reason why I am not muslim anymore.
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brainsNballs
In Arabic you mean?
TrijezniMujo
I knew that one would come out, no, in English and in another language I won't disclose for my own safety.
TrijezniMujo
Besides, you can't claim islam is universal and available to all if you restrict it to archaic arabic that isn't spoken anymore.
SIRTOXIC13
What is the penalty for leaving the religion?
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crispinoir
source: I used to be muslim.
RationalViking
fudge cake. lol just kidding, it's death.
DemoB0y
Tea and Cake or Death?
RationalViking
ten points for that. I saw him live last year. Best show ever :D
galsfer06
Excruciating methods of killing. Anything from stoned to death to being light up on fire.
monsiuerdownvotes
the same ultimate penalty as not converting to it
ThePakistallion
Same penalty for leaving any other religion I'm sure.... I know plenty that left; They're all still breathing and walking around n shit.
IWasToldThereWasCake
Cake or death?
laziegoblin
I think in Europe the penalty will be whatever the people around you who are still muslims do to you. Which could be nothing, but we all ..
infiniteflux
No penalty. "Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion." Quran 109-6
Xalaqia
But apostasy, leaving Islam, is to be punished by death.
AnatolianTiger
Nope it doesn't
Xalaqia
Really? What passage am I misinterpreting?
AnatolianTiger
"To you your religion and to me mine" Surah-al Kafirun, you can believe whatever you wanna believe.Maybe you were thinking isis or so
Agharbal
nothing,The death penalty is for those who leave the religion then Attack it which considered as treason , most countries do that inc The US
Agharbal
And the death penalty is applied only states that are fully islamic and rule by the laws of Islam
Mangana
So when someone gives a researched/educated answer, people respond with a down vote because it doesn't jive with their preexisting belief?
Mangana
This needs to be the top response to the original questioned. That verse only applies to those that intend to leave, then attack Muslims.
Baghdadd
Depends on what sect you belong to, it can range from death to being thrown out of the community.
SpreadyUnsettling
Or to nothing.
Baghdadd
Yes true.
TornadoKiller
I found this book helpful for understanding: https://www.alislam.org/library/book/punishment-apostacy-islam/
theSpeciaIist
Quran 88:21–22[23] or "no compulsion in religion" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Baqara_256#Relevance_to_apostasy
smoothoprater
If there's a contradiction between 2 verses, the latter one is valid. 88:21 is from the Meccan period and was abolished during
smoothoprater
the Medinan period.
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Mangana
That's very far from the truth. It's best to provide credible, non-bias sources before making such comments.
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BaBaDuuk
And have u asked each and everyone of these ppl? Can you name the thousands of terrorist groups with their written manifesto not 1 or 2
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BaBaDuuk
U wanna mention any genocides against muslims? Chechnia? Sebrhanica (lebanon)? Central african republic? Myanmar (by buddhists of all ppl!)?
abidikgubidik
no heaven?!?
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SAlmuhandis
it's funny, to a lot of people the less information and idea they have about something the more opinion they have about it.
Murlox
Tell that to Ayaz Nazami that. Or I guess more accurately his grave.
citizencloudcharlie
You have to run a particularly strenuous obstacle course while carrying a small egg.
MrMagnanimous
Lambast
Is the egg hard, or soft boiled? Please tell me it's not raw!?!
xuvial
IT'S FUCKING RAWWWWW
lostnortherner
Recently read the autobiography of a man who left Islam in the 80s while growing up in Pakistan. He was put in jail and assumed insane.
youcantproveit
https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran/noble/sura4.html#89 An apostate is one who leaves the faith. 4:89 commands you to kill leavers.
FinallyaGirlisNoOne
The Arabic term Qatl is used in the sense of severing all social contacts. https://www.alislam.org/quran/view/?page=208®ion=EN&CR=
youcantproveit
I do not read Arabic, so I don't understand your link. I know qatl to be like "execution" in Uzbek. It clearly says to kill them @ your link
FinallyaGirlisNoOne
It has English translations. There is a commentary that explains with context in consideration.
youcantproveit
https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/quran/apostasy.aspx Almost a dozen places it says to kill leavers or disbelievers.
Mangana
A dozen places only agreed upon by "wahabi" and extremist sects. Mainstream (especially Shia) Muslims believe those traditions are false.
youcantproveit
Let's get 1 thing straight. They're interpretation or belief it's false DOES NOT MEAN IT'S NOT WRITTEN.Discussing the books: they're violent
Mangana
Sorry, late reply. This is a more complex topic than can be clearly discussed here. Would love to discuss if you’d like to DM me.
youcantproveit
"Mainstream" muslims are westernized. The "extremists" are still considered 6% of the followers which is over 120,000,000 people unreformed.
eatmyshorts0728
This is a horrible source. It comes with a clear bias and it is not peer reviewed. It is meant to validate those who misinterpret Islam.
Mangana
But had it been peer reviewed, research would have shown the verse is out of context and refers to those who left to fight/kill Muslims.
Xsiah
Of course the quran is a horrible source.
InspectorSpacetlme
The site is a bad source because it deliberately took the quote out of context, see the other replies.
youcantproveit
Don't be stupid. I quoted the direct fucking verse. https://quran.com/4/89 the site is not the source, it is simply the first of many citing
InspectorSpacetlme
It's taken out of context. Hence why you shouldn't use such an agenda focused site. Twisting words is easy.
Xsiah
I'm trying to imagine context that would put a positive spin on "kill them wherever you find them" and it's just not working out.
Mangana
4:89 is out of context. Verse was directed at those who left their faith/community to fight/kill Muslims for financial or status benefits.
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Xalaqia
Just kidding. It's death.
notanavocado
If shouldn't be a complicated matter though. It should be "ok, see ya. Sorry to see you go!"
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notanavocado
I cannot think of a situation where murdering someone is the appropriate response to a change in belief.
APissedOffMuslim
Saudi Arabia still has slaves though
Psychoticcx
Did you see it yourself?
Ponnosuke
Same with Qatar. In fact, the next soccer world cup will be played in stadiums built by slaves.
AntennaDibb
I'm not even going to bother tuning in, the fact that Qatar bought the host then killed a bunch of people to build its stadiums is shameful
acompletelyrandomperson
Saudi outlawed slavery in 62 but that wacky Saud family, and their Bin Ladin cousins still have slaves. Don't you know they're bettern you?
MartinhoDenHaag
Look up on Mauritania, they still got slaves.
sam001101
look up sh omar suleiman on slavery. he covers the topic of slavery in islam
SexPenguinWhoreNunToTheArchdoiceseAndOligarchy
.
zim57398
Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, India, Thailand, Mauritania, Brazil, the list goes on. There's more slaves now than at any other point in history.
UnnecessaryExposition
While I am against the whole indentured labour thing, I feel like slave is misused here. Noone forced them to go there. Leaving is harder...
KNDBS
Libya as well
nakedangel
Did you know they still have slave markets and white slaves for sale? Yeah, it's true. Not only in Saudi Arabia neither.
tinyfootprints
They aren't legal. Don't think that the USA doesn't have slaves too.
Evergrey
The USA still has slaves. A fuckton. Not legally, but there you go.
ButterfaceTaintClown
That's because It's Always Sunni in Saudi Arabia.
cloudandtrains
The western world have no slaves*
Evergrey
Heh, the Western world has a fuckton of slaves.
spectheintro
That's because Saudi Arabia is (literally) the root of all Islamic evil.
BabyGroot
That's what Wahabbism will do to you.
Strongharbour432
That good old state funded religion for you
BaBaDuuk
So true but Its amazing these ppl (house of saud) were given this authority by the USA/UK who didnt care how backwards they were.
Baghdadd
And the US is their biggest ally for decades. What does that tell us about the US? The root of all evil is the enabler as well.
MooseGoneMeh
I know that's false because you used the word "all".
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spectheintro
Muhammad is a prophet in the vein of all Abrahamic prophets, save Jesus. Read the Old Testament and compare him to the Old Kings (1/2)
kanashimi444
And he married a six year old girl and had sex with her when she was nine. Pedophile. Historic fact.
isaidhelloyoufooliloveyou
Source? I've seen this repeated so often I'd genuinely like to know where it was cited?
spectheintro
Yes. Were you expecting a different response?
spectheintro
of Israel. Child marriage and procreation was exceedingly common. (2/2)
kanashimi444
Not to six year olds, it wasn't.
spectheintro
You are mistaken. Moses sanctioned sexual intercourse with girls as young as 3 years old.
EloisEris
Except the fact that Mohammed lived like a century later, or more?
spectheintro
How is this relevant? Is your position that some prophets get a pass for bad behavior because they were born earlier in time? If you (1/2)
spectheintro
think Muhammad was a bad dude, then you also need to think several Hebrew prophets were bad dudes. (2/2)
Neptuneflyer
I think you mean a millenium.
tomyironmane
Keep in mind that there are also passages that say it's OK to lie to and screw over anyone who is not of the islamic faith.
BewareTheIceSpiders
Doesnt look like thats keeping Saudi Arabia from screwing up Yemen and Qatar
spectheintro
There are several contradictory verses in both the Qur'an and the had'ith about this.
TachyonCode
Not that I'm arguing with you, but I would like to know: How many of you have actually read the original Arabic?
BHPaperstacks
It's not contradictory if you understand the sunnah. Sura 2 states all latter given verses are to be followed if they contradict. Cont.
spectheintro
Abrogation in the Qur'an is still something that Muslim theologians are pretty divided on. I don't think it's as clear-cut as you say.
BHPaperstacks
Unfortunately these are mostly the ones that encourage violence and subjugation of non muslims.
wildsnek
i'd like to see those passages.
tomyironmane
Google it yourself.
VonKarnstein
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/burden-of-proof
ArchDukeArchibald
Taqiyya is to be used only if your life is at stake for being a muslim. i. e religious persecution
tomyironmane
You mean like "We keep beheading them and they refuse to convert?"
ArchDukeArchibald
No
OliverBlomqvist
Mohammed is literally the root of all islamic evil. Dude was a warlord...
BaBaDuuk
Righhhtt and whatever land you live in was handed over on a plate - i mean obviously no wars went into the making of countries. Ever. Right?
oumajgad
He was a pedophile.
Strongharbour432
So were a vast amount of people in Rome. And we still glorify it
OliverBlomqvist
I live in sweden, the country with the longest consecutive time of peace, last war fought in 1809. And thats because we abandoned 1/2
OliverBlomqvist
Stupid ideologies. A warlords values dont belong in the modern world.
darkdmc
No it doesn't!
KNDBS
Maybe SA doesn't, but Libya certainly does.
cvpsu
I'm Saudi and I just want clarification, what's the difference between the migrant workers who chose to travel to Saudi and the asians 1/2
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cvpsu
Holding passports is shitty, that's one thing I can't stand, but there's no false advertisement, or at least not for Saudi Arabia
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cvpsu
Working in sweatshops? Yeah there's mistreatment but is there a reason to call it slavery? I'm genuinely curious, not starting an argument.
Dipityseren
I think the example I particularly like are the little boys taken from India to ride race-camels. No money, beaten up and raped - does that
Dipityseren
meet with all the requirements? Or do they actually have to be killed to meet the criteria? Own the evil, Saudi's are slavers.
cvpsu
They get money, and can report abuse. Rape especially does not just slide under the rug. Get some real sources man
HoldingAccount
Every country has slaves. It's not just so transparent as it was. But trafficking people and such are a huge industry.
ArtOfKarolMichalec
There are more slaves now than ever at any given moment.
TheCommissar
There are more people now than ever at any moment in history.
1whitemoon
You are not wrong
ArtOfKarolMichalec
Researchers estimate that 21 million are enslaved worldwide, generating $150 billion each year in illicit profits for traffickers.
justsignedupforthishit
I'm gonna need sauce for this.
CountSnarkula
I doubt fanatics of any stripe will ever be swayed by logic. This shows a rarely seen human face to a religion we are learning to fear.
ekzeko
Well, they believe in god, the Quran is god's direct order. It's all very coherent in their mind. Like I always say, kill god first.
Xsiah
And what a nose on her!
Brew4526
Country
Brew4526
There is a reason why mostly the 59 attacks in 11 days, isis, the rape crisis, and how before the iran revolution in 1979 Iran was a modern
SomeCrazyNerd
Uh, you wanna reword that.
Brew4526
Elaborate
SomeCrazyNerd
You're missing words to make it a coherent sentence.
Brew4526
There is a reason why, mostly as in most likely but I put mostly and left out the comma to save on characters
TheNax
You're getting downvoted, but everybody who reads it knows the answer to it sadly.
Brew4526
They think everyone is the same every culture is the same they refuse to see evil the only thing we can do is continue to talk about it
SomeCrazyNerd
What is "the evil"? Also, that kind of "they think" comment is usually very ignorant of the other's position.
Brew4526
Who fought for ISIS do you not see a problem 4
Brew4526
Happens outside your selfish sphere of me me me there are people suffering out there that's what I care about not tolerance at the cost 2
Brew4526
The sharia courts, the rape gangs, muslim no go zones, the hundreds of terror attacks, riots, and so many more do you just not care what 1
Brew4526
Of other peoples misery nobody should be oppressed but when medical centers are taken away from rape victims in sweden and given to men 3
Brew4526
http://pamelageller.com/2017/01/swedish-women-terrified-sex-attacks-muslim-migrants-turn-shopping-centres-no-go-zone.html/
GasBandit
The ones that really bake my noodle are the women who proudly support being covered.
citizencloudcharlie
There's nothing really wrong with that, though. Women proudly wear make-up, too. Different strokes for different folks.
GasBandit
In this case, though, it just means they've been gaslighted. Slaves proud of their chains.
DragonJak
It's a standard of beauty and of modesty. If that's what they want to wear, and it breaks no laws, I see no reason to condemn them for it.
GasBandit
Thing is, if a western woman wears something other than society dictates, she *doesn't* get stoned to death as a devil's whore.
darkdragonempress
Not Muslim, but from things I've read it was sometimes a thing to show your devotion to the faith.But that it was supposed to be a personal1
darkdragonempress
Choice. 2
CWMoudi
It's a choice. If they wanna wear it, hurray for them. If they don't wanna wear it, hurray for them as well!
GasBandit
In the immediate wake of emancipation, a whole lot of slaves "chose" to return to their masters. Should that have been respected?
CWMoudi
The slaves "chose" to return because they were unable to cope with making their own decisions and the concept of freedom was new to them 1/2
CWMoudi
How does that compare to women choosing whether or not they want to wear a piece of fabric?
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samsonguy920
If they are your values, and not someone else's imposed upon you.
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samsonguy920
I am not assuming women are forced. I have never stated such.
GasBandit
Moral relativism is bunk.
NuggyHashbrowns
Women are generally getting it tuff in any 3rd world country
AcidAssasin
I read that as, 'Women are getting TOUGH in' the third world. This is also true, I have meet a many strong Arab women in my time.
RosencrantzNGuildensternNeverLived
You know there's a bunch of badass muslim bitches who taught themselves military shit and are currently on point to kick ISIS ass, right?
cindel
I think you mean the Kurdish rebels!
RosencrantzNGuildensternNeverLived
The kurds know the way!
WowSoSparkly
My favourite is how she didnt throw slave women under the bus, distance herself from them, but showed sympathy for them. Tell him Mama!
Confusedcultist
Sad, but true mate.
lurkingupvotetroll
If you criticizes a race or culture where within the culture they oppressed women/homos/etc. 2/2
justlurkinfornow
You're not.You're deemed a bigot when you wrongfully attribute a unique characteristic to a group thats already vulnerable & an easy target.
nowitsshowtime
Just heard yesterday on a conservative talk show that changes in 3rd worlds are going to be due to a push from the women of the countries
SederHishtalshelus
Yeah thanks man
disinformatique
Yes because women are super safe in 1st world countries? May I point to Child Marriages, Murders and all kinds of abuse against women in US?
theshoeminator
That tends to be the case where they are slaves to their wombs.
CoderWithoutCaffeine
Not too long ago women couldn't vote in the US.
Wronggifplacement
Also, in the rest of the real world.
shadowex3
Women could vote in a majority of states before the amendment was even passed.
shadowex3
And even after that for decades young men were drafted BEFORE they could vote by women who COULD vote. THAT is what inequality looks like.
GuardsmanMiku
I mean to be fair most people are getting it tough in any 3rd world country. That's kind of the definition of a 3rd world country.
CityYeti
Also Russia
frosty147
I'm having a hard time thinking of an Islamic third world country that ranks higher than any other third world country for women.
lurkingupvotetroll
Oppression is a cultural thing. You have this patriarchy mentally across all cultures. Sad thing is you're deem a bigot or racist 1/2
Victim42
I wanted to make a porn star joke, but it only works for Latin America, since Czechia, Slovakia, Hungary and Russia is the second world.
arthurmcclellan1337
Hell women couldn't even vote 100 years ago.
ArdentSlacker
Hell women, you say? https://imgur.com/1MZa9lX
TheBurritoConfederacy
I'm feeling the Devil's temptations right now and I'm not gonna resist.\
arthurmcclellan1337
Ha, punctuation matters
ArdentSlacker
I'm down with a bit of succubus suffrage.
PedestrianElectrobastard
And 200 years ago you couldn't vote unless you were rich.
cindel
And white!
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CanWeTalkAboutThis
I laughed.
GuardsmanMiku
well played, you got me. +1
HolaVicente
In any country, really.
LordDarkwood
*facepalm* No comparison whatsoever.
ArdentSlacker
It ain't a contest. We aren't going to go "Okay, this year, the worst place to be a woman was India... again. So we'll fix one thing there!"
LordDarkwood
You're at least right in it's not even remotely a contest lol.
LordDarkwood
The problem is it's a wildly false equivalence and cheapens the struggle of women who have real MUCH more serious problems. 1/2
LordDarkwood
In this country women have advantages in many areas, and other groups, including men, have as many struggles.
ordeith
Not true, really. Know a lot of women who have a normal life. Tough maybe, but thats normal as well.
DiabloPablo
Also in Irelandand, the US, Poland and the list goes on and on... If men could geg pregnant, abortion would'nt be up for debate.
420B0ngRips4Jesus69
Serious question- is this an accurate representation of the interactions between men and women in Muslim countries? Can women really talk to
LavaAxe
Depends a lot on the country. Like Christian countries, muslim countries are all different.
Mayaabb
I'm Lebanese (Catholic though not Muslim), but from the people i know, even Muslim women here are strong and have a lot of power, (1)
Mayaabb
(2) they don't tolerate being spoken down to or bossed around even the veiled ones. Sure there are exceptions in rural towns though.
cindel
Yup I'm from Australia and god help any man who tried to talk down to the Lebanese women in South West Sydney.
Mayaabb
Hahaha you should see us here in Lebanon!
shadowex3
Short answer: No. Long answer: Maybe to a son not totally indoctrinated. Otherwise she's getting honor killed.
420B0ngRips4Jesus69
Men in such a way without repercussions?
DuckThatBarks
Her son? Yes. Outside her family? Not so much. But this is a generalization as it varies widely in different countries and regions.
420B0ngRips4Jesus69
I understand that in the context of this post their conversation is normal (mom and son), in a way I was referring to their overall culture.
DuckThatBarks
Who's "overall culture"? Depends entirely on the location. Murican's wouldn't tolerate stranger jumping our crap for wearing what we want.
cheesyrox
Yeah it depends on culture, the middle east is more extreme than other places like Bangladesh.
Tomy3433
I do belive they still get it worse in Islamic third world countries
BaBaDuuk
Like india? Where the rape count is >40,000 a yr? Blame the moslems! Read a newspaper jeez
DesiRuseAndDesiRabble
India is not an Islamic country. It is a secular country.
BaBaDuuk
Hindu and sikh majority and in no way secular. Wow do u live here in india?
shadowex3
There are no islamic first world countries. Well... maybe france and germany.
twopeeman
Even in first world countries women are not paid equally and treated as sex commodities
MillenialJesus
People forget how much of a problem human traficking and sex slavery is in the US.
Giffylongstockings
Stop perpetuating the bs that women get paid less for one it's illegal to do for 2 the stat that is paired with the wage gap myth doesn't 1/
pixelsnader
I mean, just because something is illegal doesn't mean it's not happening.
Giffylongstockings
Factor that women not only are less likely to work because plenty of them still stay home to raise family but it also doesn't include 2/
Giffylongstockings
The fact that men are more likely to work more dangerous jobs which because of risks involved pay a bit better
twopeeman
It's a known fact in the UK not a myth
Giffylongstockings
Yep just like it's "fact" in the US
Giffylongstockings
Oooh there's the feminist downvoting real facts oh no whatever shall I do without my fake nonexistent points boo hoo hoo hoo
LoTRFanatic42
If you really didn't care, you wouldn't have made this unprovoked comment.
Giffylongstockings
If I cared about the points why the fuck would I speak my mind to a bunch of hipster feminists who won't even listen to anything but 1/
FancyGiraffes
Wage gap is a myth on an individual level. Overall women make less, but men work more.
MemeStealingSkeleton
This, it's more of an earnings gap
NotWelcomehere
They can choose to be sex-symbols. The difference as always is choice.
egbertmoxie
Oh, you sweet summer child.
darkdragonempress
Some chose to be sex symbols but there's a disconcerting amount of relevance placed on sexual physique. Even in industries it makes no sense
FedericoAstica
I live in a 3rd world country (Argentina) and in many ways, women has more rights here than in the US, like mandatory paid maternity leave.
cindel
The words "rights" and "mandatory" don't usually go in a sentence together.
cindel
Wait you mean mandatory for the company to pay probably. Sorry, I'm an idiot.
DiabloPablo
What about abortion? Is it as bad as the US? Or can women decide over their own body?
PackedCatMeowingPowerDensity
No official legislation but hospitals are forced to carry out requests. I think standing for abortion is political suicide there.
justlurkinfornow
Argentina is a third world country? Huh, the more you know.
MemeStealingSkeleton
In the original definition based on alliance during the cold war yes
LavaAxe
In the original sense Finland is a 3rd world country.
Strongharbour432
Weren't they the ones that went economically isolated to raise their dollars worth?
Cheomesh
In the technical sense, yeah.
pixelsnader
If it's mandatory is it still a right, though? Or do you mean it's mandatory for companies to offer, but not for women to accept?
egbertmoxie
Your comment just sounds so alien to me, I swear, sorry. Mandatory to accept. Wat.
egbertmoxie
What? Not argentinian, but usually it's a law enacted by state. You get parental support by default, usually from the state, or employer.
pixelsnader
'Parental support' sounds a lot different from 'mandatory leave', which is why I asked for clarification.
Dramacian
*any country. Remember that domestic rape was... nothing, before a law turned it criminal in the 60s ? Guess the so advanced country.
dasklaus
In the 90s in Germany. The fucking 90s.
mrstanuki
Same as Canada :/
krallisawesome
1991 in the UK. Didn't even get a law - it's only illegal by judicial precedent.
sundaymondayhippyday
SankingDragon
False equivalence. Women in the 60s were undoubtedly better off in America than in India or Saudi Arabia.
jtveg1
True of course but not in that regard, ie domestic rape.
itsthevoiceman
Fallacy of Relative Privation. Just because others have it worse, doesn't mean that bad isn't "bad". Women still dealt with shit.
SankingDragon
Not a hard logical fallacy, the "fallacy of relative privation" isn't a logical rule. You can use it but you must make an argument as well.
itsthevoiceman
K. Example: You're not allowed to be happy, because others are happier than you. You can't be sad, because others are sadder than you.
jtveg1
Thank for the new fallacy. ????
PangolinBan
Women were better off in the 60s in Iran than nowadays. If not for the 1979 revolution, their rights might still be comparable now.
DarthSedition
Women were better off in certain parts of Iran. There's evidence to suggest that things lined nicer on the surface than they actually were
PangolinBan
Women's rights in Iran weren't upheld uniformly, sure. It's hard to argue some had it better under the Ayatollah than the Shah though.
SankingDragon
Well, Iran was a secular state for a time. Saudi Arabia was not. I used my examples carefully.
PangolinBan
Just pointing out generalizations can muddle the issue. Counterexample: Turkey. Not doing well re women's rights, not a 3rd world country.
Dramacian
Not an equivalence, just a reminder that you do not need to be a 1/3 world country to oppress women.
ImAFuckingWalkingPokedex
you think women are the only ones who are opressed in modern countries?
Dramacian
Is it a question ? Just know that domination works in every aspect of life, both sexes are submitted to it, one being more oppressed.
SankingDragon
It is an equivalence, because you're implying that oppression of women via domestic rape is functionally equivalent to 3rd world oppression.
davidsarif
Saying that a set is part of a larger set is different to equivalence
keyonne
Dude. He was just mentioning that the general oppression of women still exists in all countries and gave an example. Chill
Dramacian
It might technically be an equivalence indeed, the difference being one is visible and the other not.
Holmesl92
But the SJWs told me the veil was all about female empowerment?
Winndypops
Oh it is though!! Yaaas quien! Only white men can oppress women you would know this if you took Miss Stienberg's gender studies course.
ITalkAboutGoats
How about this, we just stop telling women what they are and aren't allowed to wear?
achedteacher
... It's a piece of clothing. You shouldn't force women to wear it, but I can see others finding strength in its identity.
Continous
Ah yes, I too find strength in the identity of thousands of years of being held under the boot of my oppressor.
ITalkAboutGoats
Just like Christian women and crosses, right?
achedteacher
But what if they live in a free country and the only oppression they're experiencing is other people saying they can't wear the hijab?
morningxafter
Fuckin' well-said, mate. Islam isn't the problem fundamentalists with ass-backward views are the problem.
DrHat
Something something about "the fundamentals of Islam". That isn't just a cute phrase. Your sentence contradicts itself.
PietroAretino
Nah, you're wrong & have obviously not read the Koran nor the Hadith. People love upvoting bullshit on this site as long as it's goody goody
ekzeko
Yup, can't reform social practices associated with clear quranic decree without claiming god is fallible and thus blasphemy. Just ditch it.
PietroAretino
Exactly. Religion in it's entirety is "ass backwards".
LlamaLingo
Muhammed was a pedophile warlord and he is the forfigure of islam when it comes to humans soooooo...
PietroAretino
You're absolutely right everyone down voting are illogical and irrational superstitious idiot.
LlamaLingo
Why are people downvoting this when it is true? Muhammed consumated his marriage when the girl was 9 *facepalm*
PietroAretino
Yeah & just take a look at the Hadith which is his BS outright. He's cool w/ murder, pedophilia, slavery, rape & all the fun islam stuff.
KillingTheJoke6
Without Islam, would they still act that way?
davidsarif
If not Islam then ancient forms if Christianity such as in Africa
KillingTheJoke6
I'm gonna say prob no. Without Islam, the Middle East would be fragmented by the many pagan and other religions that preceded the 1300s
CenturyScientist
They would likely follow another religion and take it to extremes to continue supporting ass backwards views
PietroAretino
How about not following superstitious apocryphal bullshit? And being a logical and rational human being
Brew4526
If it wasnt for the islamic revolution they would still be living in a modern civilization like our own they were prospering
Brew4526
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/travel_news/article-4148684/Stunning-photos-reveal-life-Iran-revolution.html
TrijezniMujo
No, the fundamentals of islam itself are the problem.
Svartlebee
So, people who follow the religion as Mohammed would?
armeggedonCounselor
This is true in all places, for all cultures. Those who cling to the past without consideration for change are the problem.
Kelroth127
In most cultures, 'clinging to the past' might be waving an old flag or complaining about pop music. Bit different to killing people, mate.
armeggedonCounselor
Depends on what that old flag stands for, or what the music means.
Brew4526
And how would you say a religion is overtaken by radicals its because they arent perverting the religion they are following it
cajuninjun
they're following a specific version of Islam, created in the early 1900s in KSA, it's called Wahabism, before that Islam was different
Brew4526
Mohammad said never kill innocents but also stated those who arent muslim cant be innocent so that 6 year old girl in the uk is free fame
cajuninjun
it's similar to the differences between baptists and mormons, same basic idea, different specific ways to practice
TrijezniMujo
Not really, all branches of islam agree on killing apostates. And only ahmadis (who aren't considered muslims) don't want to kill gays
morningxafter
Ask almost any Western Muslim and they will tell you Daesh is a perversion of their faith, like WBC & KKK are perversions of Christianity.
Svartlebee
"Western Muslim". Oh yes, the tiny minority of Islam who has no influence on the rest nor should be taken as an example. Let's see opinion
Svartlebee
3/ innocent people.
Svartlebee
2/ polls from Islamic countries. Also, you think a western Muslim would denounce Mohammed? He married a child and led many wars against
ZombieJonSnow
The fact that you have to call them Western Muslims in order to make your point.... sort of shines through the idealism to show the facts.
DrHat
No true Scotsmen
Brew4526
You cant pervert whats already written down clear as day
spectheintro
with the hadith to have formed an educated opinion. Tell us your thoughts on Islamic jurisprudence! (2/2)
spectheintro
Tell us more, o expert of Islam and the Qur'an. I am certain you have read several translations of the book and are familiar enough (1/2)
Brew4526
How about approximately 50 percent of the Islamic world is inbred following the prophets example of marrying their first cousin
applesforjuice
As a Christian I really want to read the Qur'an. The Muslims I have talked to (used to work 7hrs a night with a guy and we'd talk 1/?
Brew4526
https://ericallenbell.com/2017/03/04/islam-inbreeding-iq-and-aggression/
roorooter
This GIF is not halal.
Svartlebee
Tell Me, is there an Islamic country with a human rights record like that in the West.
ChrisTallant
I don't believe there's a country - regardless of religion - that has non-human rights issues.
Svartlebee
That's a cop out. The ten worst countries to be women are Islamic. Islamic countries have high abuse rates and it should be challenged.
morningxafter
You're right. But the thing is, it didn't used to be that way. Look at Iran pre-Islamic revolution. It was a normal modern society that...
TrijezniMujo
Yeah, pre-islamic revolution AKA when it was secular.
morningxafter
Just happened to have a different religion than Christianity. There are plenty of Muslim countries that aren't anything like Iran or SA...
ChrisTallant
So North Korea, China, Russia... these are Islamic? Learn something new every day.
applesforjuice
Lol I can't speak to the others, but I lived in China. Not even close. Not even an issue comparatively.
Johgr0
The problem is that most of these backwards views are held by many, not only "fundamentalists". Check out Pew research center on Islam
samsonguy920
Same can be said with Christianity. You only have to look at the GOP in the US and their views. They are many. They are not the majority, >
samsonguy920
> but there are a significant amount of them.
Adderkop
Yep. In some areas it's actually the majority.
cheesyrox
They are more extreme in the middle east than other places so it mostly depends on culture.
TrijezniMujo
*most areas.
spectheintro
*you don't know what you're talking about.
BigBlueBurd
*actually he does, again, look at the PEW Research Centre's stats on Islam.
Confusedcultist
Thank you, buddy. We just have to try, to do better.
DrHat
Do better doing what? I'm sorry I know you mean well, but I don't see what I owe this culture/religion. Be a better idea or I will question.
BigBlueBurd
If the fundamentalists of any ideology, faith or other way of life are a problem, then the fundamentals should be looked at very carefully.
Akillesursinne
"Islam isn't the problem". Wait, what? Then why aren't the jews blowing themselves up? Or The fundamentalist Budhists? Come on dude.
morningxafter
But are they all blowing themselves up? Or even MOST? No! Then it must not be the religion, it must be the man, or they'd ALL be doing it.
Akillesursinne
The point is that Mohammed did kill captive jews, he did enslave people. It is all supported in the holy book, just like the bible.
PietroAretino
The biggest victim of Islam are Muslims.
Akillesursinne
No. Not at all. Not all christians martyr themselves although martyrdom is honoured. So your argument is invalid.
morningxafter
How is that invalid? They don't all do it even though it's honored in the Bible is EXACTLY my argument. Not all Muslims do it either.
Akillesursinne
Well if they do follow the footsteps of Mohammed, and kill the heathen, they are still Muslims, are they not?
Akillesursinne
So there is nothing in the book that is keeping you from slaying heathens or beating your wife, nothing, so yes, Islam has problems!
Svartlebee
Lots of regular Muslims contribute to the shittiness. Look how many Muslims go to destroy Israel rallies or Islamic countries themselves.
spectheintro
What does being anti-Israel have to do with being Muslim? Arab antipathy towards Israel predates the rise of Islamic extremism.
Svartlebee
2/ Jews have the audacity to even have a country in their ancestral homeland is upsetting to Islam.
ekzeko
Oh come on, whatever you way you look at it the establishment of israel and it's policies have been 19th century levels of colonialism.(1)
ekzeko
And i'm not even involving the religious aspect. Most Israeli are just stuck watching it unfold too. But it's a clear process.
Svartlebee
And the only reason why Muslims are there is a 1300 year old colonisation by Islamic forces.
Svartlebee
It has always existed. Islamic hatred for Jews has long existed with Muslims conquering and subjugating them where they can. The fact that
spectheintro
The Jews have been persecuted by both Christians and Muslims. Historically, the Muslims have been far kinder to the Jewish faith than (1/2)
spectheintro
Christians. Are you forgetting the entire reason why Zionism was founded? Hint: it wasn't Islamic persecution of Jews. (2/2)
Svartlebee
It was Nazism, not Christianity. But lets not forget. It's not Christianity that gays for the blood of the Jewish state, it's Islam. They
Svartlebee
2/ already have two wars under their belt where they tried to eliminate Israel.
morningxafter
Could also look at WBC protesting military funerals. Point is it's not the religion, it's the person. There's shitty people in any religion.
BearicusMaximus
Such as favourable views on fucked up practices like killing gays and positive views on suicide bombings
ekzeko
The problem is always religion. Faith is based on an irrational premise. If you believe in god's potency and he has left clear guidelines(1)
ekzeko
the quran unlike the bible is straight up god's word. Then you must obey, claiming it is no longer appropriate is claiming god is fallible.
FartedWhileMakingUpName
WBC has maybe a couple hundred members at most? Tiny compared to the numbers of "radical" Muslims or Islamists.
BearicusMaximus
WBC is a tiny fraction of Christians, look at Muslim majority countries and peer reviewed studies. Muslim have more community rooted issues
morningxafter
I understand they're a tiny fraction I'm just comparing how they both bastardized their respective religions.
BearicusMaximus
Sorta, Christianity had a reformation and has been modernized where as Islam doesn't have that same luxury so it is still pretty fucky
TrijezniMujo
WBC doesn't decapitate nor throw gays off buldings.
Gullara
Let's be honest. They would probably be game for that if they could get away with it.
TrijezniMujo
Sure, but the muslims do get away with it and thus do it. WBC doesn't do anything except for being rude.
Svartlebee
Really? So each religion is perfect and has no flaws and all the evil they have done is just coincidence? No ideas worth challenging?
morningxafter
Where the hell did I imply that. I literally just said ALL religions have ppl who bastardized their faith.
Svartlebee
Because you are saying that it is only the people's fault. If they are bastardising it, it implies that they are taking it wrongly rather
Svartlebee
4/ would be considered pious Islamic behaviour.
Svartlebee
3/ who hate gays are doing as their faith says. As do those who fight in the name of Islam. In Mohammed's time much of what Isis is doing
Svartlebee
2/ than their something actually being wrong with the faith. Islam considers homosexuals abominations. It is in the Qur'an. Muslima