ButtBot9900
108113
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Feb 2, 2021 12:49 PM
ButtBot9900
108113
5185
165
hardytardigrade
It was founded on the principle that "all men are created equal", by slaveowners, so maybe try to figure that one out next
pandosnatch
I don't think abortion is a religious issue
chardlz
To be fair, you do have to morally consider when a fetus becomes a person with rights. Laws still need to be concocted with morality in mind
jazex
It's not an issue of religion, it's an issue of science. If you consider a fetus to be alive, it's the same murdering anyone else.
evangrumling5
Same sex marriage? Why is the government involved at all? But Abortion isn’t just a religious issue it’s a morality issue with no winners!
BootsDusty
milchuck1000
They're more legal issues than religious but "evangelicals" use religion as leverage because they think it gives them the moral high ground.
CrankFurry
Separating of church and state only means that there will be no official state religion & no religion above another; Constitutionally 1/2
CrankFurry
Applies only to the federal government. People can use any belief they want to push laws - just can’t force a particular religion.
Ermahgerdness
CrankFurry
Even more mind blowing - multiplied states had official and financially supported religions until the mid 1800s; public school were 1/2
CrankFurry
Essentially Protestant schools - the issue only arose once Catholic numbers started to rise - then you had a raft of church separation laws
Burnteyeofgod
Other than restricting the establishment of an official religion at the federal level, the constitution doesn’t separate church and 1/?
Burnteyeofgod
State. On top of that, abortion is a moral issue, more than a religious one, it’s not exclusive to Christianity. 2/2
MasterChristopher
That's the thing that always baffled me. You don't have to be religious to be unsettled by abortion...
aPokal
Because marriage is a legal state and some argue abortion to be murder. It IS more a political matter than religious. Take out the tax
aPokal
benefits, partnered protections, custody regulation and see how many still care.
ptrezza
the fight over same sex marriage is all about $ - tax benefits and health insurance
QuantumReek
"What's up w/ that anyway?" Some folks think an unborn baby is a human life. Even a full fledge libertarian will drawn the line in that case
QuantumReek
Nothing to do with religion. Not being snarky. Just something OP may not have thought of yet.
innagaddavidababy
Because there are Americans who disagree. That’s all it takes.
avprod1
Separation was to protect church from state, not to keep the concept of right and wrong from impacting the state.
ArisildeDamal
You honestly think church holds the concept of right and wrong? lmfao. Have you met these people?
valvarsson
Technically if it was truly separate the church would decide church matters (such as marriage) and the state would have no say.
untrugby
That separation only applied to the federal govt until 1925The founding fathers were perfectly fine with religionbased state laws in fact 1/
untrugby
Jefferson one of the least religious founders wrote religious based laws for the state of Virginia such as castration for gays
Whatwhatsomethingbutt
Because your information comes from memes and you don't understand the separation of church and state.
mgags21
exactly
Antrazit
I think abortion is so political because it’s easy availability devalues a pregnancy in their eyes, so it isn’t so much about religion,
Antrazit
But about people defending, however subconsciously, their way of life and their understanding of the world. On top of that, it is a very
Antrazit
Accessible moral dilemma, which makes it the perfect subject to use for virtue signalling
Antrazit
Or let’s call it self presentation overall.no other issues has become synonymous with identification as either progressive or conservative
Antrazit
To this degree. The actual conundrum of abortion has been solved by the west long ago: Your body, your choice. But it’s about more than that
Antrazit
Now. And the victims of all of this are obviously women.
Xalaqia
Cruelty is the point. According to the religious/delusional, women must be punished for not wanting a child.
solr22
There are non religious scientific arguments against abortion, the media only presents you with those of stupid Jesus nuts.
OvergrownDwarf
Nicely summerised. Ur right media will portrait religious nuts cz emotional trigger content SELLs and gets hits/views. Its a legal issue.
ItsBobBelcher
What scientific arguments?
solr22
For example, that the fetus is a living human being and as such shouldn't be killed unless it's a matter of life and death for the mother.
Nostradamuswaswrong
That argument ignores and violates bodily autonomy.
solr22
Bodily autonomy can't be more important than the right to live.
Nostradamuswaswrong
Yes it can. And, in point of fact, is. You can't even take a dead person's organs to save a life unless they consented to be a donor.
ItsBobBelcher
I still feel like this is more of an emotional argument. Like, a fetus is either a living human with soul or not. In biology, the line is
ItsBobBelcher
Very blurry. For instance there’s these things called implicit genes which are basically in own arms race when it comes to fetal development
ItsBobBelcher
The male genes try to make the fetus demand more energy from the mother while in the female they try to suppress the fetus for her survival.
SophisticatedHonky
Abortion isn’t a religious issue, it’s a human rights issue. It’s about whether we can allow people to just decide to end another human life
CrackerUmustBTrippin
Your opinion on 'personhood' is a selfserving religious one, not an objective informed scientific one. So you can take it and shove it.
SophisticatedHonky
Easy, there’s no need to insult anyone. I’m sorry that my thoughts were so offensive to you. What is self-serving about what I said?
leodavinci1
Without recognizing body autonomy as the basis of human rights, it is a "moral" issue based on religious belief.
prolurker2077
Good thing a fetus isn't a human life.
SophisticatedHonky
It’s alive, and it’s the product of 2 humans-at what point does it become a human? Not arguing, I’d just like to hear your point of view!
prolurker2077
It's alive as much as a plant is. Scientifically, there is no consensus. My general rule is when it gains sentience its a human life
SophisticatedHonky
When does it gain sentience?
prolurker2077
That's the problem, there's no scientific consensus. It's roughly the third trimester
technicallycorrectbutnofunatparties
REALLY unpopular opinion: the initial implementation of marriage as a governmental entity (i.e. marriage license was a legal contract)...
ameriki
Marriage is a property contract.
Thordekaiser
Yes! It's amazing the power we allow the government to hold for issues that shouldn't relate to the government.
technicallycorrectbutnofunatparties
...was a failure of separation of church and state.
ButtBot9900
What about those medieval European marriages that were all about political alliances?
astrangehop
Specifically sanctified by religion.
Nostradamuswaswrong
Marriage =/= Wedding. Marriage is a legal contract, weddings tend to be ceremonies with religious components.
BootsDusty
ihavethelowground
Incoming wAr aGAiNsT ChRIstiaNItY
idonthaveauser
I once was like that: Respecting religions. But nowadays I believe religions are actually a bad thing and need to be objected.
idonthaveauser
I don't respect you being stupid, doing stupid things and wasting/harming your money/life for some fictional god. That's bad for society.
StormWinterwind
Who is this glorious defender of freedom?
frankbanner
I’m pro choice, devil’s advocate here; at what point is the abortion argument less about religion and more abt the beginning of life
ImNotStalkingYouBTWYoureOutOfMilk
Abortion is a Right of Life issue, which is why abortions are conditional in almost every country that has it
RatElemental
A lot of people, including me, see it as a bodily autonomy issue. Abortion is ending a pregnancy, the fact that a fetus that isn't viable
RatElemental
yet will die as a result isn't the intended goal, it's just an unfortunate side outcome.
GodEmperorOfImgur
During IVF at fertility clinics, many eggs are fertilized, one is used the rest (fertilized, viable) are discarded.
MyPasswordIs1234
In my experience people who are against abortion are against this too, unless they have no idea how IVF works in practice.
CrackerUmustBTrippin
https://lawandcrime.com/high-profile/alabama-abortion-law-says-terminating-a-fertilized-egg-is-legal-in-a-lab-setting/ they dont care
CrackerUmustBTrippin
It's about pubishment for women who dare to have sex outside of the christian marriage exclusion zone.
MyPasswordIs1234
Thanks for the link. That's absolutely ridiculous though.
fredh67
Most states are more free about first trimester abortions - by 20 weeks there is a fully functioning nervous system. I wouldn't ban /
fredh67
abortion, but I do think people need to choose EARLY. Morning after pill, or at least first trimester. After that it's just cruelty, IMO.
CrackerUmustBTrippin
Nowhere in the world are post 22 weeks abortions legal (exceptions for direct threat to the mothers health).
cookingachicken
The 20 week line is about administrative hassle. After that you usually have to fill out a death certificate and give it a human burial.
Starfox5
At no point. The "Pro life" people don't give a damn about children needing help - they just want to punish and oppress women.
Millsslslsls
Are you speaking as a pro life person or are you using a strawman argument?
Starfox5
Just look what the pro life crowd says and votes about helping children in poor families. They. Do. Not. Care. About. The. Living.
Millsslslsls
I know a few pro-life people, I disagree with them on policies but i admire how actively they contribute to helping people in my community.
CrackerUmustBTrippin
https://friendlyatheist.patheos.com/2019/05/20/a-methodist-pastor-is-brilliantly-calling-out-the-pro-life-crowds-hypocrisy/ its bs
Starfox5
Really? So they support sex education? Free access to contraceptives? Support for single mothers? Welfare and free education?
mikeatike
Do you think you should be forced to donate a part of your body to someone else?
MyPasswordIs1234
Counterargument: conjoined twins sharing a vital organ. One of them asks a doctor to cut off the other one.
mikeatike
It isn't solely their organ in that case.
frankbanner
What?
Eniff
Imagine someone on life support needed a kidney to live and only you can viably donate. Should you be forced to donate yours to save them?
Kitarin
Do you think if someone agrees and gives a kidney they can take it back cause they didn't like the outcome when they knew what could happen.
Eniff
Let's try a better analogy. Imagine someone gets pregnant and carries it to term. Upon giving birth it's discovered that the baby 1/?
Hoiloidl
Weird way to ask for the D
GoblinBreath
bla703
I think you can separate church and state, but you can't totally separate religious values from policy in a democracy of religious citizens.
Attaroo
Damn good reason to start taxing Churches then, isn't it?
bla703
Probably? As far as I'm aware churches aren't really taxed in (Western) Europe either and people are still on average less religious.
bla703
All I'm saying: no easy fixes.
bla703
And to preempt any arguments, I'm a godless European with no skin in this particular game.
StarscreamAndHutch
Why do officials swear on a bible or any other holy document. It clearly does no good. Swear on a bank account or thumbs to do your job.
Jawesome19
Cause they're smart enough to be a politician but dumb enough to believe in religion
Anju42
This never made sense because swearing to God or on the bible is forbidden in the bible.
CaptainSlower
Pandering to their base
Deadpoolisfunny
As a Christian, I hate the idea. This is a democracy, not a theocracy.
LurkerOfDarkness
I'd swear on Principia, or maybe origin of species, now that's something to hold high.
smokeyfantastico
Lol do ya job or we break ya hands. How do we vote this rule in?
TheN8
Ask the French.
mashimaro
As a non-American, that bible thing is actually something I've always found very odd, surprising and inappropriate
cptcr
why don't they swear on the US Constitution?
68people
Swear on your bank balance. Goes to zero of you break your oath.
MattScottsdale
They should swear on the constitution!
CommunCreator
Some people do.
dogestyle
YOU HAVE TO SWEAR ON THE BABBLE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFYRkzznsc0&t=1s
fatcatfreya
Maybe officials should swear on the constitution? Ya know, the founding documents of our country?
B3N15
You don't have to use a holy text. John Quincy Adams swore on a book of laws. The act itself, swearing an oath upon a holy relic, has...
B3N15
...its roots in the Middle Ages and is supposed to symbolize the idea that you are taking the oath seriously and are, ultimately, holding...
B3N15
...yourself accountable to god.
figsbar
I thought that was the joke, to many officials, their bank account is far more holy than the Bible that they swore on
Imalwaysready
Constitution provides for "an oath or affirmation." Oaths invoke a religiosity. Affirmations do not. Some are sworn in on Constitutions, etc
WillJeSuis
To appeal to the faith crowd. Who I assume are probably the most crazy and out spoken.
Misteree8
Why cant officials swear on a copy of the constitution since thats what they are trying to up hold for the most part.
crankyoldgeezer
It’s not required.
AbeFromanSausageKingOfChicago
Why swear on anything. It doesn’t mean anything. Raising your hand and reciting platitudes doesn’t impact how shitty of a person you can be.
StarscreamAndHutch
It means nothing because there is no real consequence attached.
GUESWHO2
Why swear at all? They won't hold some swear.
nycterelis
You can choose what to swear on.
blueKD
One guy swore on Captain America's shield
dogestyle
I'd swear on me Mum
gilwaethwy
Then it blows my mind wondering why no one swore on the declaration of independance...
dan144
Marjorie told me that if you used the Quran you're actually illegitimately in office.
sfrinlan
I live one district over, and it's hard to stand it.
captainjuicynipples
I would swear on a burrito
Kumonryu42
I'd just swear on the constitution. Does any other document really matter in this context?
KingXizor
I'd swear on the Silmarillion. Let them figure that one out.
Imalwaysready
Interestingly, some have chosen not to swear on a religious text for different reasons. Some chose laws to indicate what their affirmation >
Imalwaysready
was to, others (non-presidents) have done it because they were not religious, and still others because they WERE religious but were from >
Imalwaysready
sects (like many Quakers) who view swearing on the Bible to be a sin or affront to god (James 5:12)--some are TOO religious to use a Bible.
becauseurwrong
Makes since. In my catholic household, the phrase "swear to god" was considered disrespectful to him
Narwhilian
whoneedsanoriginalname
Perfection.
leechdemon
No no, THIS guy swore on a bible...
sundaymondayhippyday
He didn’t know you didn’t have to though- this is his look when told that....blank...
ThatGuyWhosFunAtParties
No, he swore on a BAHble
StarscreamAndHutch
They aren’t going to swear on anything meaningful unless forced to. It needs to demonstrate the acceptance of consequence in the real world.
nycterelis
Yes, but in the case of zealotry, what happens to the mortal coil is more often less important than what happens to the immortal soul. 1/x
nycterelis
So you need to have an option for that as well. Granted, i don't think we've ever elected someone that that really applies to 2/2.
BunchaCrunchOfHuman
Nah, some swear on law books or constitutional documents
StarscreamAndHutch
The constitution is the only document I would find acceptable. The point I’m making is swearing on something means nothing unless there is/
StarscreamAndHutch
/collateral on the table that binds you to completing the duty. You fail, you lose. There needs to be ‘skin in the game’.
electricsillygoose
I'm pro-choice but I understand the pro-life argument. I'd definately take them seriously if they cared at all about children after birth.
sicsided
Thus why I consider them forced-birth , not prolife.
ghsdkgb
And/or advocated for better birth control and sex education to prevent those unwanted pregnancies in the first place.
aquestionfouru
How do u know that they don’t?
becauseurwrong
Or, ya know, the lives of the women before or after those births. Y'all act like an abortion carries the same weight as getting a hairdo
becauseurwrong
Women aren't giddy about it. It's not consequence-free. Even if we removed the politics, shame-based laws & stigma, her body has reactions.
becauseurwrong
And even if she needs or wants it, some women still feel guilty over it and the coulda-been's. The pro-life squad doesn't care about women.
rowanblaze
Yep, pro-child and pro-mother countries have far better outcomes than anti-abortion countries. Canada is a prime example.
peanutbutterandjammmm
There are still crazy pro lifers picketing outfront and phony crisis centers here too.
[deleted]
[deleted]
becauseurwrong
Please don't tell me it's a "women are made for birthing & must continue to populate against their will" thing.
Jonnythetrout
You know, there are already laws against propagating against your will. Nice strawman, though.
otiumCatulli
They shouldn't base it on a biological argument unless they are biologists with specialism in foetal development.
gerf
So you can't debate politics unless you're a professional politician? C'mon man!
ItsBobBelcher
Yeah I don’t know if there is any biological basis in pro life. Genes are selfish. If anything we shouldn’t procreate lol
iamspartan1262
My stance is, don't get an abortion if you don't want one, and don't make them necessary to begin with
monikir
I don't understand the pro-life argument, can you explain it to me?
elitwin10
Most "pro-lifers" are not pro life at all. They are "anti-abortionists".
sylvnal
Theyre pro-state forced birth and thats it.
sandwiches
I don’t think that’s morally inconsistent of the pro birthers to be honest. After all, if I save a person (a child even)>
sandwiches
> from committing suicide or rescue them out of a wreck, no one expects me to support that person.
MassStorageDeviceCanNowBeSafelyRemoved
actual argument I've heard: if you get raped prolifers would rather you give birth and put them up for adoption
sandwiches
That still doesn’t seem inconsistent to me. They think that the embryo or fetus is a human life. So, regardless of how it came to be >
meme2theextreme
I'm only pro choice because I know that outlawing abortions doesn't prevent abortions, it prevents safe abortions.
damnitjanit
Amen. As someone that’s in the medical field, one botched abortion is all you need to see to know creating barriers to care only hurts
hashtagyoureit
Unfortunately, there are some people that are okay with people who have abortions dying.
[deleted]
[deleted]
SmashySashimi
Except studies have shown time and again that they do reduce them. The CDC used to track gun deaths until the NRA got government to stop.
[deleted]
[deleted]
ChakLee
taking a stand uselessly is for emotional people. Organizations should be pragmatic. Politics should be professional.
ChakLee
imagine if a public company said "yeah this initiative is dumb, but it sure feels like it _should_ make money". They'd get destroyed
tesseract4d2
You break the speed limit by yourself though. Making abortions illegal just means they're being performed by non-reputable
tesseract4d2
Clinicians. And speed limits DO prevent people from speeding, gun laws DO prevent people from getting guns. They just don't prevent ALL
Sloppydrunkcatlady
If it's against your morals don't get an abortion. However your morals don't affect what others can do with their bodies.
sandwiches
You evaded his point. The point is that not outlawing something because people will do anyway is a bad policy.
damnitjanit
Your argument is supporting the one you said isn’t good you know that right?
Hufflepufflerine
Gun laws don't prevent gun violence? HAHaHaHAaaaa as a European I find that way of thinking utterly ridiculous. You've got your head so far
Hufflepufflerine
Up your ass it's astonishing
Crookie281
Gun laws work if you can control supply and distribution. If you refuse to control that, other gun laws are milquetoast.
pedroglyphic
Nobody likes abortions. It would be more accurate to name those who call themselves “pro-life”, anti-choice. We’re all pro-life.
Jonnythetrout
But that's not even true. There are people who brag about their abortions. And there are so many easier ways to prevent pregnancy, they(1/2)
Jonnythetrout
just require a modicum of forethought and responsibility. (2/2)
Puppiesgalore
We’re all pro life until the death penalty comes up.
pedroglyphic
Funny- I guess that highlights a fuzzy line in my values- I’m pro-choice, and anti-death penalty.
vzii
Every time I try to talk to someone about the issue seriously I just get downvoted. But I also hate the cherry picking of the pro-life 1/2
vzii
movement. If it's not about all life and just abortion, you are not pro-life. 2/2
thetonestarr
Us true pro-lifers do, but I also support choice because I know I am not convincing anybody by fascisticly telling them what they can do.
sandwiches
I’m also pro choice but it isn’t necessarily fascism to tell people what to do. Are all laws fascism?
thetonestarr
Certainly not, but that's how they view it. Inappropriate control over their bodies that nobody should have but themselves. Laws over >
thetonestarr
thetonestarr
As such, I believe the only way to achieve progress is to meet halfway.
sandwiches
I don't get it. Who views it as fascism? Pro-choicers or anti-choicers?
thetonestarr
Far left prochoicers view anti abortion laws as fascist.
maybenoyeswedo
Dude.... That makes you pro-choice
FormerlySable
I think that makes someone “pro- mind-my-own-business.”
APieceOfFuckingShit
I think there's a big problem with the false dichotomy of "pro-life" vs "pro-choice." No one who is pro-choice is anti-life.
thetonestarr
You can be pro life and pro choice simultaneously. The two are not mutually exclusive, as much as you may have been told so. Explanation >
figsbar
That'd be the case is the argument wasn't about legislation. But since it is, if you don't want to ban abortion, you are pro-choice
thetonestarr
Certainly. The point I'm making, though, is that pro-life in truth does not mean anti-choice. Common usage does, but it shouldn't.
thetonestarr
Pro life simply means that you believe all life to be sacred and that abortion is wrong. Pro choice means you believe people should>
ThanatosElNyx
Your definition of pro-life doesn't really match common usage, it doesn't allow for anyone to have a choice.
thetonestarr
PhloydPhan
Because in the 1950s people decided that the US was a 'Christian Nation' to differentiate us from the godless Communists.
[deleted]
[deleted]
esopillar34
Was it to differentiate us? Or was it to get an untapped voting block to be guaranteed Republicans, partially using the red scare?
SpartaWolf117
both?
MrLivingDead140
Stalin ruined it for all of us. Got it.
Keasar
The rich figured it'd be easier to control people through religion.
eddbrowne
Those are issues for neurophysiology, not analysis from religions & politicians.
(and the US has a huge pile of religions & politicians)
TryItIDareU
It actually goes back to the 1700’s with the early puritans. It just comes and goes in phases. ?
atheistzombie
Also the beginning of the John Birch Society, which gave birth to the current flavor of socio-political right wing the US now has...
vodray
"The US is in no sense founded on the Christian religion" - John Adams, 1787
skellington01
And 70 years later a communist country is about to surpass you as biggest economy, b/c half of you believe in fairytales and not viruses
zfournier16
No because there are alot of people in this country that have said religons that say no bad and then they dont think about rape victems
JoeT85
Religion is a tribal sort of thing. By its nature it needs a leadership and that's an addictive power. Faith is really easy to twist.
Auxilium
Where's God and where are Commies now?
rgpea
Same happened in Ireland https://medium.com/@martinmeany/repeal-the-eighth-the-rebirth-of-a-nation-f599480a4ad9
astroarcher13
https://imgur.com/afnoS95.jpg
AbeFromanSausageKingOfChicago
“Catholics and other christians are against abortion, and against homosexuals.......well WHO HAS LESS ABORTIONS THAN HOMOSEXUALS?!? You’d
AbeFromanSausageKingOfChicago
think they would make natural allies.” - George Carlin, Back in Town
copingcabana
And in the 1990's the Republicans realized they could make blowjobs a wedge issue.
qmoodo
1950s? No no, this is a founding principle of British colonization in North America, evolved over 400 years.
qmoodo
People vs. Hall + Ozawa/Thind vs US, KKK missionary schools, manifest destiny, etc. American White Supremacist Christofascism is a tradition
SalmonTheWise
Yeah, there is a lot of puritan bullshit ingrained deep in american culture.
TunaBabyHippo
You really think that judeo-christian values weren't established until the 1950s? seriously? PLEASE, read any history of the founders.
TunaBabyHippo
That is total bullshit. The first penny was in 1864, to start a campaign that demonstrated American Values. And, more during the Civil War
vaultdweller0322
Huh, learned something new today.
SpartaWolf117
that’s where the ‘under god’ in the pledge, and ‘in god we trust’ on money comes from
vaultdweller0322
I always wondered, but honestly never took the time to look it up. I figured it would have its roots in the 1800s, not the 50s though
SpartaWolf117
history is fun
vaultdweller0322
And depressing at times
AlecMarlow
The pro-life movement was actually sparked from the conservatives needing a new high ground after being pro-Vietnam war.
indigodragons
Eww why can’t they leave my atheist ass alone.
ImHereToExplainTheJoke
Ironic considering our founders were mostly non-Christian
screendler
Really? Which ones?
astroarcher13
https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/the-faqs-is-freemasonry-compatible-with-christianity/
ImHereToExplainTheJoke
Thomas Paine, Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, James Monroe, George Washington, Ben Franklin and more. Some of them may have taken Judeo-
ImHereToExplainTheJoke
Christian influences but a lot of the founders were deists or somewhere in between deist and Christian.
EternalSunshineofthePotlessMind
Who are now Russian o orthodox
nmdedkova
Yes but being Russian ortho(only culturally usually) is a lot diff than crazy American evangelicals
EternalSunshineofthePotlessMind
Oh I'm not criticizing the religion. I'm just saying it's ironic
GrumpyOldMillennial
Wait, how do the Russian Orthodox fit into any of this? I didn't get any memos....
EternalSunshineofthePotlessMind
The godless communist (USSR/Russia) country we became militantly Christian to fight is now being run by a Russian Orthodox president
GrumpyOldMillennial
Good thing we in the Diaspora don't recognize the Patriarchy in Moscow.
Tumescentpie
They funny thing is that they kind of always were. Their totalitarian government banned religion and it didn't disappear.
avavilina
It didn't disappear, but it did seriously decline. Even now most former USSR members have majority atheist populations. /1
avavilina
Turns out a lot of modern people who grow up without religion don't really feel much need for it. /2
fiftyfluffyfalcons
Agree. In Russia, people often go to church because it's a status thing or to show they are "spiritual", not because they believe or need it
Tumescentpie
Just like China and their treatment of the Uighurs. Humans are fucking weird.
ICantThinkOfAU
I mean after Stalin died the whole “no religion” thing kinda fell to the wayside in a big way. Part of the “de-Stalinisation” plan
SalmonTheWise
They also relaxed their stance when they had to improve morale of the conscripts, turns out a lot were still religious, during WW2
Thephedora
Who were for the most part, and get this, also fucking Christians ✝️.
RunsNakedThroughSwamps
Odd considering how weird Christians are about sex
CheekusClapicus
Beat me to it
thelegendofthetwistednavigator
Not under the USSR. The Russian Orthodox Church was very Tsarist and not liked by the Communist Party at all
nmdedkova
Russian Orthodox Church was always Christian but was suppressed during ussr. Now it’s basically an arm of the state but still Christian
thelegendofthetwistednavigator
And they specifically had a conversion to atheism program
ThanatosElNyx
Which is silly since you can't convert TO atheism
Rufin
I don't think the victims cared much about semantics.
thelegendofthetwistednavigator
The Communist Party of the Soviet Union were famous for their logically consistent ideological positions
thiswascomplicated
It’s about time I see someone who knows the true story about a “Christian nation” and doesn’t say this country was founded on Christianity.
astroarcher13
https://imgur.com/2fBEJtN.jpg
dfhowes
We are a nation of Christians, not a Christian nation. Big difference.
Attaroo
We were, we aren't anymore. The fastest growing religious affiliation is none.
dfhowes
Hey, that's me!!! ?
generalsplayingrisk
Well it's true that we've always been pretty christian, the rhetoric may have been suddenly more common b/c of communism but the faith 1/2
generalsplayingrisk
was still there before it, it just didn't necessarily have as much political relevance. But if you look at the rhetoric around slavery, 2/3
generalsplayingrisk
some of the most powerful political oration was around god and faith and our obligations around christian morality, for good reason 3/3
ButtBot9900
That was the same time "under God" was added to the pledge, wasn't it?
iamspartan1262
You're exactly correct yes
CrownCrooked
And hand in the heart.
Counterfit
That was a little earlier because the Bellamy salute got ruined by some assholes
CrownCrooked
On*
dragonherder
Yes and In God We Trust became the "official" motto of the US.
Bugdaze
In God we trust, all others pay cash
ButterfaceTaintClown
you read how God behaves. i do not trust him. not one bit.
dragonherder
Haha well he doesn't exist so
zyb0t
Sounds like ppl who didnt like the separation of church and state pulled a sneaky on u
NoIRLonlyAFK
You guys should leave america and start again somewhere else /s.
cepacolusmaximus
Fucking Evangelicals. The original American Taliban.
PastaJesus
Damn, bamboozled again.
PhloydPhan
Yes. It was add to currency at about the same time.
TunaBabyHippo
What complete horse shit! It was put on currency during the Civil War to demonstrate to the world where America's values were grounded; 1864
clide005
To show us what the capitalists actually worship.
jacblake
“In God We Trust. All Others Pay Cash”
qPRdxH4UXm36HS9rJgLA
The first penny just said "Mind your business"
Counterfit
That everlasting quote from John F̶o̶o̶t̶p̶e̶n̶i̶s̶ Hancock
Nathanfake
So it’s the communists fault?
PoliticalWanderer
TheLesserOfTwoWeevils
LesLesVegetables
The Eastern Orthodox following godless communists?
nikkinikorasu
Well, there's also the Chinese communists of the time. Thr Maoists. They were publicly godless. But they weren't the big C, just little c.
icounttopotato
Most folks I've argued with don't consider abortion as a religious issue. They consider it to be murder.
[deleted]
[deleted]
Xalaqia
Depends if their invisible friend ordered the killing.
Heavenissize17socks
Solved it. Make it a medical privacy issue, covered by Hippaa /s
Crookie281
Good luck with that argument. When the fetus is considered a person by law, you can't declare it medical privacy. Anyone else old enough>
Crookie281
To remember when laws declared that rape was impossible in marriage? Hey, marriage privacy, no laws apply.
Crookie281
BTW, I've voted against every fucking anti choice law, but mostly because we suck as a society when it comes to care post-birth.
GuysJustWannaFish
Spawn camping. Its not fair to kill them before everyone gets a turn.
Itsfineiknowaguythatknowsadoctor
But what if thier turn doesn't start with any ammo?
ezzyazeze
“Most folks” is a remarkably nebulous specification; care to provide further detail. Kinda looks like a semi-strawman comment otherwise.
donutposse11337
Since it’s murder. Can I buy a life insurance policy on that life?
YunoFGasai
Probably would get charged for insurance fraud
endersjeesh
And they're the same people in favor of the death penalty
CrackerUmustBTrippin
And against veganism, against enviromentalism or willing to care about any life except their own and their family and zygotes
Crookie281
Yep. This is the part that kills me. If it's a question of rules and absolutes, be consistent. But if killing animals is ok because >
Crookie281
They're tasty, you're carving out exceptions, and the pro choice folks should get an exception as well.
CrackerUmustBTrippin
https://friendlyatheist.patheos.com/2019/05/20/a-methodist-pastor-is-brilliantly-calling-out-the-pro-life-crowds-hypocrisy/ its badfaith bs
TheGrayBox
But not capital punishment. Or contraceptives. Or euthanasia.
thatscool22
Which has been a religious stance. But even the Bible says god doesn’t put your soul into you until you’re birthed.
suffragettecity3639
Judaism says 3 days, so a morning after pill would be alright.
CrackerUmustBTrippin
The bible doesnt say jack shit about the unborn. https://religionnews.com/2020/10/16/what-does-the-bible-really-say-about-abortion/
HUGaBART
Where does the Bible say that?
Brownie19
What's the argument that abortion is a religious issue?
hardytardigrade
Well, views on abortion correlate with religious views https://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/views-about-abortion/
CrackerUmustBTrippin
https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/05/religious-right-real-origins-107133 it's about authoritarianism disguised as a virtue.
fredh67
A lot of religious people talk about the fetus having a soul at conception, and they make it a religious issue. It doesn't have to be to /
fredh67
have counter arguments, but they've made that their argument. I'm not religious, and I wouldn't ban abortion, but I find it abhorrent.
MyPasswordIs1234
That's weird. In my country abortion is a hot topic, but the discussion is not around "it has a soul", but around "it's a person/human".
fredh67
And... actually... IMO, the argument should be "when (at what point in the pregnancy) should a fetus have human rights."
fredh67
Some might say at conception, some say at birth, but this is where the argument lies, IMO.
fredh67
Yes, I agree that's what the argument SHOULD be, I'm just answering the question about how someone can make it a religious argument.
MyPasswordIs1234
I mean in my country over 90% of people self-identify as catholic, but the debate still isn't around soul.
HolyCowDoNotEat
Which is an interesting take, honestly. The body aborts through miscarriage all the time, is that murder as well? Who’s held responsible?
pandosnatch
That's stupid
JThor15
Then I suppose autoimmune disorders are suicide?
SaintCody
Thats like asking who is responsible for an old man dying of old age. Nature happens. scooping out a baby is not nature happening.
benoit489
You can't control what the body is doing in that case (ie dying of natural causes).
GreyKihano
Poor example. Difference between manslaughter and murder is intention. There is no intention in miscarriage. If there was it's abortion.
shefloats
Some laws state it exactly like that.
zeddyy
First trimester medical abortion is physically similar to miscarriage. But all other types of abortion are dramatically different
zeddyy
Pro-choice, but inserting a tool to essentially liquify a fetus is different from having a progesterone level too high to support gestation
GodEmperorOfImgur
By their own argument, fertility clinics commit massmurder. IVF means they fertilize a fuckton of eggs, implant one, and toss the others.
IATTM
I grew up in a fundementalist family and this is actually a point they hold to.
MyPasswordIs1234
Can confirm.
GodEmperorOfImgur
Huh. Well... at least they're consistent.
zeddyy
Lots of anti-abortionists are hardcore about this & adopting unwanted embryos.
TimeFoDat
I’ll concede it’s killing but all killing is not “murder”, at least not according to our justice system.
fredh67
Intentionally destroying innocent human life... I wouldn't ban it (particularly first trimester), but abortion is no accident.
fredh67
Love the downvotes... can anyone actually argue against it, or does reality just hurt? SMH.
TimeFoDat
Argue against what? Still not sure what your point is. Abortion is murder but it should be allowed? Formulate a viewpoint to defend.
fredh67
Yes - it should be allowed because the ramifications of it not being allowed can be worse.
TimeFoDat
Shooting an intruder is no accident, nor is stepping on bugs or only saving 1 person when 2 are in danger. Are those murder?
fredh67
No. You really think it's comparable? An intruder isn't innocent; some things can't be helped. I also literally said "I wouldn't ban it."
TheGrayBox
Yes, I really think it’s comparable. Abortion is a legitimate medical practice that has a medical purpose.
TimeFoDat
All I'm saying is killing isn't always murder, intentional or not. What if the woman is high risk for life-threatening complications?
TimeFoDat
Okay but pregnancy is a medical condition that can & has resulted in death & disability. Women are forced to go through it no matter what?
fredh67
I literally said "I wouldn't ban it." Literally!
TimeFoDat
But you're literally arguing that it's murder as well so you're contradicting yourself. You wouldn't ban murder? That makes no sense.
Jonnythetrout
It has, but those are incredibly rare. Also, no one is forced to become pregnant (outside of rape, which most agree abortion should (1/2)
TimeFoDat
That’s such a bullshit argument, it assumes everyone is 100% educated on the topic & ignores economic, religious and psychological factors.
Jonnythetrout
be allowed). If you look at the childbirth mortality rates in the US, it's 17 per 100,000, and 12% of that is due to infection/sepsis (2/3)
TimeFoDat
It’s easy to say, “Well if you got knocked up it’s your own fault!” if you just pretend anyone getting pregnant has the same circumstances.
ButtBot9900
On the subject anyone else think it's kinda weird that presidents swear on the bible instead of the constitution?
KMikeK
Old tradition. Be good or else you will be damned. A power greater than yourself is watching
riderofthepurplesage
Like my Mom?
stankginchfurbuger
More like your dad, but ya
OliverKlozoff1269
Do a good job or he gets the jumper cables
stankginchfurbuger
Went for smokes 2000 years ago, stil waiting for him to come back
ChetTheRocketStedman
Congresswoman Tlaib swore on the 1734 English translation of the Quran written by Thomas Jefferson(from the library of congress)
ChetTheRocketStedman
Sorry. I have to correct my words. I wrote “written by.” Jefferson did not translate it. He just purchased/owned it.
Captainius
George Sale's translation. I have a copy, it's quite good and the foot notes provide lots of context.
ChetTheRocketStedman
John Quincy Adams swore his oath on a book of law
ChetTheRocketStedman
Senator Sinema(D-AZ) swore on a law book containing both US and AZ’s constitutions
KibblesandBitchTits
cardboardwhales
‘Buut eye had ta swure on da bibal’
ChetTheRocketStedman
Congresswoman Omar swore on the Quran.
ChristopherTallant
Certain early presidents have sworn on books of law. Teddy Roosevelt and John Quincy Adams were two I can think of off the top of my head.
angryannotations
https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2017/12/12/roy-moore-campaign-spokesman-swearing-on-bible-tapper-lead.cnn/video/playlists/roy-moore/
electricsillygoose
ILikePunsMoreOrLessThanYouDo
There's something called the American Civil religion as proposed by Robert Bellah that might explain some of this
tinyfootprints
Yes.
EstellaOsoka
It's become a tradition No book or sacred article of cloth is required. Just the recitation of the oath.
TeddyBearWitch
Yes! It hit me the other day how bizarre this is and that it is still a thing.
BitchButcher
"I'm gonna swear to tell as much truth there is written in this book!"
meteorcow
I think they get to choose. I remember somebody swore on a replica Capt. America shield.
Imalwaysready
Given history, no. In modern times, yes.
ThanksForTheFeels
On separating church and state, it does not mean the state cannot embrace religious practices. It means the church does not (1/2)
ThanksForTheFeels
have authoritative control over the government. Stems from the Pope telling European monarchs how to run their country. (2/2)
ThanksForTheFeels
This is commonly misinterpreted and impossible to control (i.e. stopping a senator from praying before voting, or pres before signing).
Solsjo
In 2017 a city councilman used Captain Americas shield! https://www.cnn.com/2017/01/25/politics/councilman-captain-america-trnd/index.html
ChristopherTallant
Okay that's just amazing.
vzii
The same sex issue I don't understand. But the abortion one, It's the belief that it's truly murder. Not about choice or a woman's body.
rowanblaze
Which is, of course, not biblical.
vzii
I'm just trying to help provide reasoning. So why do people always downvote? If you don't want an answer don't ask the question.
Wobblestone
It is 100% about the woman's body. Just as I have no right to your body when I need blood, the fetus doesn't have a right to the mother's.
vzii
That is the pro-choice POV. I'm just saying the pro-life POV is that the fetus is it's own life. So when it's aborted, to them it's murder.
vzii
Most issues about choice don't matter to them when they "think" it's literal murder. To them, it's equated to killing a baby or child.
Nostradamuswaswrong
But they still don't get its the pregnancy that gets aborted, not an embryo/fetus. Abortions are done to processes, not things.
Wobblestone
And it's objectively wrong. If I need blood and you refuse to give it to me and I die, is it murder?
vzii
Small difference, but giving blood would save a life vs aborting a fetus would be "killing" one. Aborting to save the mother's life= ok imo.
Wobblestone
Your bodily autonomy cannot be infringed upon, including by a fetus. Period.
MetaSomma
They swear on whatever book they want. They've all just chosen the Bible
Blackranger3d
OMG could you imagine the uproar / riot / revolt if a president swore on something other than a bible. Even the constitution.
stankginchfurbuger
I'd totally swear on an original edition of Dune, with the appendices and maps and fucked up cover and everything. Glorious
AceninT
iirc obama swore in on a book of law
mikeatike
Except for John Quincy Adams.
deetelly
Thanks for info
waldo9254
That being said, Trump should have chosen a better book. Jurassic Park by Michael Crichton would have been a solid pick. I say Trump rather.
waldo9254
than Biden because Trump did everything....differently.
SomeDetroitGuy
Not all of them.
PloppyFenis
Just found my reason to run for president
Wileydj
In 20 years it'll be a fucking Naruto dvd case. ???
MetaSomma
If congress becomes that young we might have a chance
TeddyBearWitch
We can only hope.
Imalwaysready
Not all. Teddy Roosevelt didn't swear on a Bible and as early as John Quincey Adams he swore on a book of laws.
Blackranger3d
And how many other than those 2?
Imalwaysready
Presidents? None I'm aware of. Other offices, from Congress to governors to judges? Hundreds.
electricsillygoose
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/marjorie-taylor-greene-omar-tlaib-bible-b1793806.html
electricsillygoose
Lots of people don't acknowledge separation of church and state. Marjorie Taylor Green tried to force muslims to retake oaths on the Bible.
mikeatike
So not only is she stupid but she is a fucking liar. Not that I am terribly surprised that a conservative is a stupid liar. Just thay they
mikeatike
are THIS fucking stupid.
swiftHitMaker
Could you swear on the hobbit?
SitusInversus
ahkar5
Yes
Dantethebald
Yes
Heavenissize17socks
If it's the Book of Samwise, well, of course!
ButtBot9900
Didn't know that.
djmenyo82
Non-believers in court will swear " under pains and penalties of perjury" no need to put your hand on any book.
stankginchfurbuger
Guess an atheists word is worth more. Also, believers who've read the part where believers are entreatied not to take oaths
PhloydPhan
John Quincy Adams, Teddy Roosevelt, and Lyndon Johnson haven't used Bibles. Adams used a legal book, Roosevelt no book at all (1/2).
PhloydPhan
Johnson used a prayer book that was on Air Force One in Dallas, so not technically a Bible but still the same symbolism. (2/2)
spiceass9000
A very popular reaction gif has a dude who didn’t know that either
TypicallyVigo
There's an interview where Jake Tapper informs a Roy Moore spokesman about that and you can see it just fry his brain (1/2)
TypicallyVigo
(2) https://twitter.com/TheLeadCNN/status/940704581742419969?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E940704581742419969%7Ctwgr%
bigbabyjesusicantwait
I love that because I’m from AL and that guy is every dickhead authority figure I grew up having to deal with. Just weapons-grade idiots
DocAqua
"Weapons grade idiot* - wonderful phrase stolen for later use.
OldCaptKraken
You could technically swear on a Harry Potter book. Iirc, John Quincy Adams sweared on the constitution.
TeddyBearWitch
Truly, though? That's a wonderful factoid! I'd love to see more swear in on the constitution instead of the bible.
ButtBot9900
I do solemnly swear upon Harry's discovery of the Chamber of Secrets...
Heavenissize17socks
I would be ok with that. "Never trust anything that can think for itself if you can't see where it keeps its brain".
Nathanfake
For me it would be Car and Driver
Kalicula
I'd choose the menu from Chuck-e-cheese
MetaSomma
I don't have many car memes so this is what you get
OldCaptKraken
https://youtu.be/WFYRkzznsc0
Weissgrossmutter
Was waiting for this.