TheChunguskaEvent
60738
928
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big if true
Feb 6, 2024 2:59 AM
TheChunguskaEvent
60738
928
20
big if true
CaviaPorcellus
like ya do
SchmotGuys
aworkoffiction
I just always assumed it was part of the culture he was In and didn’t judge him for any of it. He did kill a lot of people though…
DisgruntledFerret
I mean that was also part of the culture he was in.
zeacorzeppelin10
A lot of historical figures we gay as fuck. Tchaikovsky, Andy Warhol, and many others.
EtanEngedy
Alexander the Great: “I’m not gay, but my boyfriend is.”
Sooner70
But he said, "No homo!"
nankervi442
“Which was the style at the time.”
Abe Simpson
Yellowchopsticks
Did Reign: The Conqueror not teach people anything?
DisgruntledFerret
The thing I took away from Reign: The Conqueror is that being able to measure triangles literally gives you magic powers.
MadCat221
Do these chumps not know what classical Greek sexuality was like?
IamAlbertPotato
Any holes a goal
PhailRaptor
They took notes from Zeus, clearly
vindik8or
"It's just like what my 'I Am A Western Chauvinist And I Refuse To Apologise For Creating The Modern World' boyfriends told me, right?"
TI99Kitty
No, they don't. The Greeks were the epitome of manly men. I mean look at those manly men of their military! SOOOOOOOOOO manly! And they definitely didn't have sex with each other!
Drakhma
dislurkerdude
He was bi actually
cousteau
So he was gay and at the same time gayn't. He was gaybe.
Awmph
I've seen Netflix. I don't think anyone's turning gay for Netflix.
vericon151
Next they will be telling me the Spartans took on young male companions… damn you factual history!
Eleshar24
Spartiates also had one of the most horrible societies in the world ever, with the percentage and treatment of slaves rivaled only by the American South. Also their military prowess is all bullshit, Sparta was very average in terms of win/loss ratio. Their fabled agoge was far less military training facility and far more a child soldier indoctrination camp.
AxelBeingCivil
It's nice that they acknowledge identity was an evolving thing. Alexander had a *lot* of lovers, male and female.
ThrockmortonTheSkateboarder
Wasn't he bi? And didn't we have this discussion 20 years ago already when the Oliver Stone movie came out?
NotThePoint
TheYodajen
It's my understanding everyone f-d everyone at the same time back in those days
Acmer77
It was just sex to them. Looking at history through modern world glasses will always shock you.
TheJomsborgViking
Sven.. I miss my wife...
Well, you can have a go at me if I can have a go at you.
PhailRaptor
The Greeks invented oragies. The Romans improved on the concept by inviting women.
2074red2074
No actually. They had toxic masculinity too. Fucking was manly, and being manly was good. Fuck a woman, fuck a man, fuck a teenage boy, whatever, it was all good. If you wanted to be fucked by a man, you were inferior and worthy of ridicule. Of course Greece and Rome were around for a LONG time and their ideas shifted. Plus culture varies by location too. Some times and places were actually totally cool with bottoming, and some were not cool with gay sex even if you were the top.
GreaseMonkeyOfLove
https://imgur.com/lHwI8wl Everyone:
DogGuyInCatWorld
Alexander the Gay.
MFfromHell
I hear he also walked funny and was called Alexander The Gait.
tinhopodicrer
The Grayt
yourfriendlyneighbourhoodtzimisce
Likely more accurately; Alexander the Bi
DontTazeMeBrah
I don't care BUT get out of my sun
ka1iban
Son
SSon1c
so few will understand this reference :9
DontTazeMeBrah
psycho3d
PhailRaptor
"Oh my..."
WorldMillipede
Alexander's sexuality is a matter of debate among historians: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_the_Great#Personal_relationships. Overall, it looks like he miiight have been bisexual, but it's hard to apply modern ideas to people in the ancient world.
RedFlameGamer
As a Bisexual myself, I've noticed that when it comes to debates over a historic persons sexuality comes up... it's always either Gay or Straight. It's like they forget that we exist lol.
ThrockmortonTheSkateboarder
"'Hard to Apply' or 'Why They Called Him 'The Great''"
graehall
Remember kids, everyone throughout history was cis:het according to lying cis:het assholes who've worked hard to erase actual human history
iamOzymandiasLookOnMyWorksDumbassAndDespair
Can you be cis:het without being an asshole?
whitefoxkei
Nope, it's the law.
ifyoutakemeseriouslythatsonyou
*male. History sure is cis:het but it also is male.
graehall
for thousands of years dudes be puttin' the pat into patriarchy, then acting all "What? How dare you point our institutional misogyny it out, you're the REAL sexist!"
flounder35
There are plenty of history books about Alex being gay and the isle of lesbos.
graehall
sure, but they're overwhelmed by the majority which supress queerness. Same happens in biology. Suppressing queer behaviour among animals
graehall
& that suppression is used by bigots to this very day to claim "being queer is not natural!" when it always has been, but it was suppressed
Radix865
Not just Alexander but the ancient Greek in general had some not so straight habits like if you look into the Olympics. Although some others were kinda fucked up too: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pederasty_in_ancient_Greece
rdmage11
The same Alexander who was described as never being the same after his best friend and general Hephaestion died? The friend Alexander was still planning huge monuments to when he died less than a year later? That guy? Oh yeah, totally. No same sex relationships.
Crowlands
(To be clear here: I'm not gonna dispute that Ol' Al was or wasn't gay. He definitely fucked dudes. I'm just gonna point out a trend that irks me:)
Hey fellas, is it gay to be upset when your friends die?
If my closest, most trusted friend died, I'd be pretty broken up about it. And we ain't fuckin'.
I just kinda wish largely left leaning places like Tumblr or here didn't keep going "That Andrew Tate guy is right, if you show any degree of care or compassion for a friend, you're totally gay!"
Crowlands
And while, obviously, there's a major difference between how filth like him and people with basic decency Regard being gay, I still think it'd be a great thing if we, as a society, started promoting care for our platonic friends as a normal, healthy thing, that doesn't imply anything about your sexuality.
rdmage11
You do have a point- It is very possible to have incredibly close, and platonic relationships with other people, be they same sex or opposite. It's also very reasonable to be deeply affected and mourn their passing. I think there is a tendency for historians to "roommates" same sex relationships though and that's why it crops up in these contexts.
Crowlands
True, certainly. I'd like to see that hiding of history undone.
But I'd also like to recognise that we're a long way from stopping children, and man-children, from calling emotions "Gay" to make them seem like something to be reviled.
And that's something I feel should be fought, culturally.
Alexander was gay not because he wept at his closest friend's passing, but because he was attracted to that man while he lived.
Crowlands
(Also: This happens constantly with fictional characters, and while I have nothing against people having fun with them, I've enjoyed Plenty of fanfiction myself, arguing that they Must be gay because they show empathy or concern for someone is the same issue.)
(Also also: I see a similar thing in regards to being trans, though that's far less common among historical figures.)
NiftyGoblin
I dont think there was really a designation for it back then because it wasnt as big of a deal because there were no christians to make shit up about whats right or wrong yet. He loved a person, and that person just happened to have a dick too.
iamOzymandiasLookOnMyWorksDumbassAndDespair
Wow, what a deep thinker you are
NiftyGoblin
your ass must be pretty wide with how deep yer head is up there.
2074red2074
There were Romans to make shit up instead. A man fucking a man was okay. A man being fucked by a man was not.
Tyrann01
To be fair, the Greeks thought that as well. Tops = good. Bottoms = bad.
thesameasyours
He hadkids right? Ensuring his heterosexuality and masculinity that conservatives crave?
xirbitzy
He did have a son that was born after he died https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_IV_of_Macedon
Camelspotting
TIL thanks.
[deleted]
[deleted]
thesameasyours
xirbitzy
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_IV_of_Macedon
thesameasyours
For anyone wondering, no he didnt have kids
BigDaddysMeatWagon
He did though.
xirbitzy
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_IV_of_Macedon
LullabyJones
TI99Kitty
They were roommates, of course. Such good, GOOOOOD friends.
dasklaus
Crying in bed over a friend's death is not evidence of homosexuality. We have much better evidence of his queerness. Being sad someone died is not the gayest thing he did.
Hashbrown123
For weeks though. It takes a special person in your life to get that sad.
Monocular0
You can have a deep, intimate relationship with someone and not be fucking them. Some friends become like family members. Many Greek men did have sex with other men (usually young boys, actually), but being devastated at the death of a close friend does not mean you were doing the horizontal cordax.
RedFlameGamer
Yes, but also he was a soldier and a conqueror. He would be familiar with friends and compatriats dying... yet this one devastated him immensly. You're assessment is correct, but also I don't think it's a reach to infer that there may have been something more to their relationship.
PerpetualExhaustion
Conservatives can’t even wrap their feeble brains around the fact that homosexuality existed before the modern era.
MyNameIsJesusAndIStealHubcapsFromCars
well, when you believe the beginning of time was about 1000 years after the Sumerians invented glue, you'll have that.
RyvaTheRenamon
It especially kills them that one of, if not the most successful Emperor, General, Warrior, and Politician of the era wasn't 100% straight.
TI99Kitty
Yeah, someone the other day commented that homosexuality didn't exist until the 20th century. Like, oh really? Then why does the King James version of the bible say that homosexuality is a sin, punishable by death? Which, btw, from what I remember, was deliberately put there because King James liked to lay with the pretty, pretty boys, and the church wanted him to stop that.
paintingagency
PerpetualExhaustion
One of the things that I find most ironic is that modern day conservatives like to compare themselves to ancient Spartans… Without realizing that the agoge of ancient Sparta had extreme amounts of a homosexuality baked right into that ritual. I mean come on, there is a very specific reason that the wives of Spartan soldiers had to shave their heads before the night of their wedding… Because Spartan men were used to fucking dudes.
thundercactus
The comparison is hilarious for several reasons (baked in homosexuality aside); the first being they're the antithesis of Spartans, the second being that the Spartans were actually defeated by a bunch of homosexuals (Leuctra 371BCE), third is that they were a military state held hostage by their own system of governance: they couldn't leave their large slave population for very long without them getting uppity, so they had limited ability to do the one thing they were good at.
Shoutrr
i'm split with this interpretation, i think it's more like the church wanted to keep abusing kids so they removed the kid molester part and added homosexuality. And history tend to agree with that, seeing how priest love to touch children
DasParsonage
When the Bible was written in its different parts, there was no "the church" to remove parts of the Bible. If you want to say that they waited until the canon was being formally defined, you would literally change the face of history... if you could prove to the contrary of what both secular and religious historians have been saying for centuries.
TI99Kitty
Whichever version of the event you believe (and who's to say they can't BOTH be reasons the text was changed?), it still gives lie to the claim that men weren't fucking other men until the 1920s.
DasParsonage
The text was not changed.
TI99Kitty
Ah, so the original scriptures were written in English, gotcha.
dasklaus
Homosexuality as a construct of innate preference of medical relevance didn't exist until the 20th century. Sex between people of the same sex is older than humanity. I don't know which the commenter you reference meant but it's likely it was the former.
TI99Kitty
Since the commenter had been making some other conservative points, I feel they were trying to claim same-sex romances didn't exist until the 20th. You'd be amazed how many people think that people didn't lust after their own gender until fairly recently. Like, NO, it isn't something that only started 100 years ago, it's just that people didn't TALK about it.
dasklaus
Well, they did. It just didn't get published or when it did, did not enter into the curriculum.
TI99Kitty
Well, people were a LOT less open about it before then. And a lot of people tried to pretend it didn't exist, at least until AIDS came around and they could say that yes, it exists, and look, God created a disease to punish those people. In the 1920s through the early '40s, there were people who didn't make a point of hiding they were gay or lesbian, but by the 1950s, most were firmly back in the closet, because being gay could get you arrested, and cost you your job and your family as well.
BenjyX55
Next you'll tell me that King David was gay or Alan Turing was gay or Freddie Mercury was gay.
[deleted]
[deleted]
CheetosOnMyFingers
Fabulously bi
jtthemediocre
Or Liberace
maas2908
He just like capes and little dogs. He wasn’t trying to say anything at all, nope, just a normal musician in a mansion with a walk in closet full of capes and a pomeranian
TheChunguskaEvent
RetrogradeLlama
Whoa, whoa, whoa... easy on King David.
Roorgak
This king david? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCeCmZud3SU
HeraldOfTheBadger
Who's king David?
jac1
King David was bi
tizme
Or me!
charondaboatman
DeepThought42
Or Barry Manilow or Elton John!
ChorizoPig
"Your love for me was more wonderful than the love of a woman." ---- King David to Jonathan.
benc85
there are 4 or 5 words in greek that can roughly translate to "love". one of them is romantic sexual love. the others are not, which is why word for word translation from hebrew to greek, then further to modern languages, without care for sentence structure and context can be problematic. but i guess its just easier to infer gay when you see the word love to describe the relationship between 2 men in a book that's been translated twice AT LEAST before reaching you.
RetrogradeLlama
That actually doesn't mean he was gay. Do you have any additional references?
QueenOfTheFey
“The soul of Jonathan was knit to the soul of David.” “Jonathan made a covenant with David, because he loved him as his own soul.”“David rose... and prostrated himself with his face to the ground. He bowed three times and they kissed each other and wept with each other; David wept the more. Then Jonathan said to David, ‘Go in peace, since both of us have sworn in the name of the Lord, saying, The Lord shall be between me and you, and between my descendants and your descendants, forever.”
Roorgak
I seem to remember that according to the stories david had a close relationship with king saul after declining to marry saul's daughter as a reward for killing goliath. When he finally did marry saul's other daughter (who is said to have loved david not other way around) saul became jealous and tried to kill david. Also there is the later story of him establishing a elite unit of left handed male soldiers who train, eat, and sleep together in dedicated pairs... but it's just old stories...
fastlaserjockey
There was that one part of the bible where it turns into a hardcore gay pornographic film ... wait, did I just imagine that while I was bored in seminary?
AxelBeingCivil
I am curious which one that was.
animatronicChristmasChickens
It's Song of Solomon
AxelBeingCivil
The Song of Solomon talks about the lover being lubricated (Song of Solomon 7, talking of their lover's thighs, then their "navel" that "lacks not for wine" then carrying on to their hips). There's some arguably gay stuff in the Bible but that one is very hetero.
TheJomsborgViking
Freddie Mercury was Bisexual. He did have a female lover named Mary Austin.
tzahtman
When he passed he left her his cats, iirc.
InsertHomePageUp
And himself.
TI99Kitty
Which is fine, because wasn't Alexander also bi? Or did I just misremember reading that?
stinkingyeti
From what i read a while back, it was assumed he was super gay because he never got anyone preggers. Although, he could've just been infertile?
dasklaus
That's also what I remember. People read about someone being queer and immediately assume that must mean 100% gay, it's frustrating.
broloftheviking
The true answer is that we don't really know. He had wives, but apparently to some extent he was pushed into those marriages for political reasons. Hard to say
Txernobog
He even had a son. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_IV_of_Macedon
theBonyEaredAssfish
With respect, I don't agree. You could certainly make that case for Darius' daughters, but the sources agree Alexander was deeply infatuated with Roxana. There's no real divide on that. He also took on a lover that brought no political gain at all: Barsine. You can't skirt those.
cobacalao
What a Bicycle Race, this.
CosplayComet
My satire sensor no longer works. I'm just going to take everyone at their word and assume everyone is fucking stupid...
Tajik
I do the opposite, i just assume they are joking.
QuigleyDownUnder
It's not satire, the endwokness account is run by a fucking moron.
secretdpp
I feel like people with your pov have been blessed to have never worked retail. People are fucking morons. Covid just made it worse and flagrantly obvious
Cataleast
Yeah... At this point, it's a toss-up between satire, ignorance, malice, and ragebait because Elmo supposedly pays subscribed accounts a cut of the ad revenue in relation to their engagement numbers, so... fuck knows. Probably best to play it safe and block and move on at this point.
Grenateh
They are.
WyldStallynsRule
"End Wokeness" is a heinous dogshit group on social media that spreads a bunch of hate. I've had their trash algorithmically plopped onto my feed a few times.
GrandPubabofMoldistan
Satire and Irony died the day they brought the literal Golden Calf of Trump to CPAC. https://www.marketwatch.com/story/this-cpac-golden-calf-trump-statue-is-spurring-backlash-of-biblical-proportions-11614360507
HsuDoNihm
Poe's Law is a thing of great power.
JustDriftingAboutTheInterWebs
Right? It's become really difficult...
req4adream99
Safer and easier that way.
KiwiGameDev
I’ve gotten way too much stick in the past 5 years in Imgur comments going like “ugh, it was obviously sarcasm, can’t you tell based on how over the top it was?” Like, no, of course I couldn’t. The other day I was talking to a guy who thought that giants made bread out of dinosaur bones and the only reason we don’t have skeletal evidence is because they were all abducted by the aliens that built the pyramids. As far as I’m concerned, satire is dead
paintingagency
What, you don't believe that? There's tons of evidence, check out this youtube video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybVb3t560oY
KiwiGameDev
Converted. Embrace the alien giant theory
Raeilgunne
I really do envy those people innocent or naive enough to have not been exposed to the level of crazy we've seen.
YouUselessTwat
I usually do the opposite. Until proven otherwise, I assume joke.
cousteau
This is less realistic but better for your mental health.
RetrogradeLlama
Poe's Law. But this account (EndWokeness) is a douchenoozle Right Winger.
mutingisforcowardsandsycophants
I agreed until I looked really close at the icon and it looks so memey that I'm not sure again. But I only have that to go on, as I do not do the twittering.
ThingsThatDontJustifyGenocide
Dude, just trust.
It's a fucking fascist.
RetrogradeLlama
I googled the account. He's posted some real Right Wing BS that doesn't fall on the "is it parody?" line like this one. He's actually serious.
CosplayComet
See? Just look at all the time I saved assuming he was a piece of shit!! :D
duktayp
He wasn't gay, he just liked sex with other men
kahooki
It's ok when you said "no Dareios III" which was the style at the time.
golemwrath
wafflesmgee
He had relationships with WOMEN. And sex with men.
whatdoyoumeanicanttakemysweateroff
No homo. Serious
L4dead2
He made sure to say no homo first
HelpfulCorn
He was on the DL?
golemwrath
rollercostarican
lol this dude slid into my DMs on MySpace once. He offered to go down on me. I said i appreciated the compliment, but unfortunately i'm not gay. He said "I'm not gay either, I'm just a little freaky."
johnelway
Dwight?
rollercostarican
John?
MapleSyrupMafia
OMG, they were battle buddy!!!
Meltemi
Sacred Band of Thebes has entered the agora.
greenchair
Like Deniro in angels in America
ThisGuyPostingThings
I think you mean Pacino.
morningxafter
Or De Nero in Stardust.
TheChunguskaEvent
Ch8541136
idontliketheclonebone
xXStillTimeXx
Wait wait wait! Did they high five after?
vericon151
Probably during as well
aloharamada
Are you saying it doesn't count as gay if you high five after?
WeSingLalaWhileTheDevilDoesTheChaCha
Exactly, that makes it Bromosexual
Drakhma
chackstar
Is that… Kevin Sorbo?
Drakhma
yes. lol: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1073498/
paintingagency
Ew, Jerkules.
torisenblack
I think we should spam his TwiX account with this clip.
torisenblack
Who the F is playing Leonidas in this? I super recognize him from somewhere and cannot place where I know him from. I'm now realizing there wave been a few parodies this could be from. Hmmm, clearly not getting any work done today, this is important!
torisenblack
Oh fuck me, it's Krod Mandoon! Haven't seen that in ages, wonder if it holds up...
PhilStone911
He couldn’t be gay because if he were, he would’ve made a word for it.
1coffee2coffee
Isn’t that “the Great”? 😜
H0vencl00f
Perhaps he did, but it was a Greek word.
naughtyrev
I mean, what would he have called it? Alexandria position?
Meltemi
If you were the adult top in a paiderastic relationship (from whence comes the modern word "pederasty"), you were the erastes. If you were the youth bottom, you were the eromenos. If you were an adult bottom, you were at best a peasant (in which case they didn't expect any better of you) or if noble, you were practically making a woman of yourself at best, a horrific insult in the heavily patriarchal ancient Greek society.
AxelBeingCivil
"He's a real Macedonian, if you know what I mean..."
broloftheviking
To be entirely fair, it's hard to classify ancient people based on modern understandings of gender and sexuality. The cultural differences are so substantial, in so many ways, that it can be extremely difficult to interpret things, and things are often very subjective. Identifying gay characters in Greek stories, in particular, is difficult because many things that we read as coded suggestions of a gay relationship, or non-standard gender roles, just weren't meant that way. (1/IDK)
paintingagency
"You sound wokeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee"
broloftheviking
Alexander the Great and Achilles are often interpreted as being gay. There are plenty of reputable historians on both sides of either debate, so it doesn't feel right to me to take a side. However, one piece of evidence often mentioned is that their stories both include them passionately weeping for hours or days as they mourned the death of their best friends. It seems reasonable to interpret this as coding that the pairs were lovers, but it probably shouldn't really be taken so far. (2/idk)
aflarge
Not for nothing, but I cried for longer than that when my dog died.
broloftheviking
The depictions should probably be interpreted more as being mentioned for the sake of demonstrating the personality of the hero rather than a suggestion of an unusually close relationship with the deceased person, because other heroes of similar ancient Greek stories are also frequently depicted in similar ways, even when there's no other reason to suspect that particular character is gay. The Odyssey often depicts Odysseus crying in long, extremely passionate bouts. It's a cultural thing. (3/?)
broloftheviking
This points to the culture regarding men being extremely passionate and emotional as positive, heroic traits. Their image of a manly, heroic figure just isn't the quit, stoic sort frequently seen today. The heroes in ancient Greek stories were often strongly caring and passionate, and would openly express those emotions. In the end, to me those stories read more as "Look how great of a guy they are, caring so deeply for others" not "Look at how much they cared about this particular person"
QueenOfTheFey
I dunno, something about craving the "holy honor between his thighs" feels pretty gay to me, especially since people have been arguing about who the top/bottom was since Plato and Socrates, so I'm pretty sold on the Achilles loves Patrocles train. Especially given the heteronormative nature of post victorian historians.
broloftheviking
Yeah, I'm definitely not an expert on the literature here. I have no problem with either of them being gay, I just defer to the actual experts, and their opinions are at least to some extent mixed on both.
flarflarf
neither the greeks nor the romans really had the kind of straight/gay concepts that we do today.
hotaru251
mentality of old days was: is it a hole
Verifay
It was more about dominance and submission. A citizen (man active in society and politics) was free to top anyone, man or woman, as that is the dominant role. However, it was seen as degrading to bottom as that was the submissive role. Bottoms were typically lower-class men and slaves, and calling someone a bottom was a pretty good insult.
PotatoPirateTheThird
how the times have changed. Now we have to pay good money to get degraded and railed up the butt
cousteau
They just were all bi?
StruggleSnuggleChampion
They didn't have the concept of straight/bi/gay. People just had intercourse with other people, and the nature and social implications of that were different because the social implications of gender itself were very different. It's not so easily quantifiable to say they were all bi.
Snekfast