RationPack7
266857
9793
810
.
(According to PolitiFact, this actually slightly understates the case (American war deaths were closer to 1.2 million as of 2013).
http://imgur.com/gallery/B9bOuRh
joshff
Many of those numbers seem way off.
Spartinlimit
20m Russian civilians died during world war II that's not counting soldiers.
GhengisShlong
About 60% are suicide.
Mentok
I like how people want something done without a clue as to what. You can't legislate life, it..ugh...finds a way
LoveAtFirstAwkwardMoment
And criminals don't obey the laws, psychos find a way
ZaWithDude
Not to be an ass, but what is the point of the data? War is bad? We shouldn't be allowed our own guns? illuminated confirmed? Like what? -1
ZaWithDude
I mean yeah, it's blunt data, but doesn't tell me anything besides the obvious that people die by gunfire. No matter where. So .. yeah. 2/2
140CharactersOrLess
While this is gruesome. this is still a very small percentage, when you think about total populations.
LoveAtFirstAwkwardMoment
That's why people love raw #s vs per capita
greymouser7
Ask Australians how well it works to take away guns now. In Texas, after 'concealed carry' passed, crime rate went down as much as 40%.
clutch2999
I didn't know you capitalized guns and firearms...
circlebreaker
*cough* Demographics *cough*
LoudAngryJerk
except most of the people who die from household firearms are suicides.../
LoudAngryJerk
http://www.vocativ.com/usa/guns/suicides-outnumber-homicides-comes-gun-violence/
SuckMyUnpopularOpinion
Thanks for the link, that's interesting info
fiera
Would be more effective & correct to correlate the percentage of population. US population in 1776 was less than the # of gvmt employees now
Rwhejek
This should tell us that we need better gun education courses on weapons in the us, perhaps in schools. And better mental health care.
Captainpoopypants
MaxThornton
Isnt that a Swedish machine pistol? i might be wrong though. If it is Swedish, thats funny.
Captainpoopypants
I actually don't know
Virgil030
Tec-9
rlnilson
Then tell me the government restricting ownership of guns by responsible citizens is going to stop criminals and crazies from their part.
BlueBomber05
It works in literally every other first world country, by all measures arming untrained civilians does more harm than good
Bloodandpheromones
The point is to more effectively weed out the criminals and the crazies. Plus irresponsible people who let their children get a hold of guns
MyPasswordIs1234
Lack of guns should stop most crazies and some criminals. But US has so many guns that illegal ones will be available decades after the ban.
Sinus23
First of all "responsible citizens" Since the whole premise is that since gangsters have guns, anybody should have one. 1/2
Sinus23
don't come to me and say the government wants to restrict the "responsible citizens" of having one.Prove that you are a responsible citizen
Sinus23
and then you can buy a gun. If you ain't, then you'll have to go the illegal market like the rest of them. Still got your gun right.
SuckMyUnpopularOpinion
Not sure what constitutes a "household firearm"
cianmcintyre
Presumably a gun that is legal for a civilian to own or that was manufactured for sale to consumers.
SuckMyUnpopularOpinion
I see, I guess that's not what I think of when I hear "household firearms"
retroman1987
I still want to own a gun though.
LoveAtFirstAwkwardMoment
Same. I'll never give mine up. What do you have? I carry a Sarsilmaz K2
retroman1987
Not even sure exactly. A Remington shotgun and I think a Ruger .22 rifle that I inherited from grandpa
LoveAtFirstAwkwardMoment
You should get a handgun if you can
retroman1987
No need, plus i live in DC so that'd be a pain in the ass
LoveAtFirstAwkwardMoment
Bummer man
CaptainAsshole
We could actually educate people about guns and how to handle them as well. We do this for other potentially dangerous things. Disease, cars
dbids
1/2 im disappointed that this man of science isn't concerned about distinguishing between legal, and illegally obtained guns and their
dbids
2/2 different connections to crime as well as the rising mental health epidemic and it's effects on the u.s
DrShrinker
This mans primary role is an entertainer. Nothing more.
MrFNSunshine
As we all know, entertainers are not allowed to have opinions unless they reinforce what we've already made up our minds to believe.
mordaedil
He's a scientist you dope.
HarryButtHolePussyPotter
Exactly, his opinion on guns mean nothing . But ppl will continue to eat the shit up.
TysonGoesOutside
He should stick to space. He's very good at that. Like Ricky Gervais should stay away from hunting and keep doing stand up.
MrFNSunshine
You get to have opinions on a multitude of subjects don't you? People can analyze and weigh in on a lot of topics.
TysonGoesOutside
Lots of people do weigh in, but when they know nothing about it they end up looking like jerks.
TysonGoesOutside
Read bam Margeras thoughts on hunting and tell me he doesn't sound like a rambling idiot trying to tug at heart strings.
MrFNSunshine
So you're equivocating professional buffoon Bam Margeras with astrophysicist Neil DeGrasse Tyson? We're done.
TysonGoesOutside
I'm saying if I want info on a subject I'll ask an expert on that subject, not seek the most famous person willing to talk about it.
AverageLucas
Although I agree with this man, I would never trust anything he says since he has been caught fabricating quotes and information.
Mynameisalwaysrelevent
Hardly, I read that article and it was a harmless misattributed quote. I doubt severely that he intentionally misled anyone.
kobrakaimf
Citation please
StooperDave
Yeah, those numbers look a little too clean/round to me. And no source was provided.
only90skidswillgetthis
Details?
yavamosportuputahamburgesa
whoa. sauce plz?
cknuth
The original article this \/ article refs. http://thefederalist.com/2014/09/16/another-day-another-quote-fabricated-by-neil-degrasse-tyson/
hraka
Yeah he misquoted bush...clearly we can't trust him.
cknuth
That's probably mildly understating it lol.I like him, just saying it's pretty hypocritical to say something dumb while calling someone dumb
ImgurMontoya
So if he intentionally paints someone you don't like as bad, and confirms your personal bias, it's not untrustworthy of him?
hraka
The entire article makes an assumption of intent instead of mistake
coolseb
Source is a conservative, right wing outlet. Much of their articles are crazy.
CuntyBastard
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2014/09/22/does-neil-degrasse-tyson-make-up-stories
AdventureousYetiMan
Then look at the Washington post article about it. It did happen regardless of what news source you check
coolseb
That just repeats every thing from the Federalist article and does not provide any thing new.
krakkel
Meanwhile ~30 MILLION soviets died in WW2
ElementOfConfusion
Well this obviously isn't using misleading statistics. Come on Tyson.
tholepins
What, like he's above using his celebrity to push his own views, that may or may not align with reality? What celeb doesn't do that?
CuntyBastard
Isn't the first time he has pulled this shit, either.
PleaseCallMeJohn
he's KNOWN for doing this shit constantly
TinyLiehon
Thanks for calling him out but not spoiling us with the misleading bits
Eminai
That's because there are no misleading bits.
JustanotherdamnMinnesotan
Now he should do one for cars
blairmichod
I like the part where he accounts for the exponential growth in human population over time.
TinyLiehon
Are you saying that in one of those categories the individuals killed aren't part of the human population?
blairmichod
No, no. It's that the same number accounts for an exponentially smaller portion of humanity over time.
blairmichod
Let's say something kills a billion people. 70 years ago, that's half the planet. Now, that's less than 15% of world. Big difference.
blairmichod
Let's something kills a billion people. 70 years ago, that's half the planet. Now, that's less than 15% of world. Big difference.
yak3ftw
Scientists overextending into fields they know little about and making asses of themselves is not exactly rare.
PleaseCallMeJohn
and calling them out usually gets you ridiculed as arguing with a scientist automatically makes your argument null and void
Croso
I encourage everyone on Imgur to look at the gun laws in Kennesaw, GA and the effects it has had on crime and gun related deaths.
DigitalBang
or Chicago?
jweenypwee
Or San Bernardino...
jackbos
100 Americans died in a DDT-related cancer-cluster in the 1960s. DDT got banned as a result. Now 430,000 Africans die of Malaria per year.
EroticZombiePants
It's harder to ban malaria.
hurrdurr69
Or maybe DDT got banned because it was killing EVERYTHING. No? I guess we can pretend you're right.
jackbos
Except for the gigantic mountain of historical and scientific evidence that counters what you just said.
hurrdurr69
You're right, harmless stuff. Never hurt nothin, not even a bug
Acarus
Although I can see the point he wants to make, I still wonder what his definition of a "household firearm" is.
melodramaticbat
What do you mean? Because my definition of a household firearm would be a household firearm. A gun kept in the household.
Croso
My household firearm must be really nice, because he hasn't killed anyone ever.
boognish115
One big enough for my house to hold?
MrBananaBeak
Any death that occurred by any firearm, not counting police action.
tallestofdogs
Or military, UN "peace keepers" etc
mordaedil
I can tell you what it didn't include: It didn't include a musket.
fireraisr
Please tell me one other country that restricts gun ownership to muskets. You'll find how idiotic this argument is if you actually search
mordaedil
Mate, it's a joke. Dig up your sense of humor and breathe some life into it.
V1K1NGFVNERAL
As opposed to field firearms. The household firearms are treated slightly better but are viewed with disdain by the field firearms.
Scrotor
If I feel bad for laughing, am I still a bad person?
V1K1NGFVNERAL
Your screen name makes me think of Skeletor but all scrotum, you can't be that bad.
StereotypicalMurican
All of my firearms are free-range, 100% organic, and GMO free.
FuckTheUSCjrShamecocks
You damn hippies ruining the image of nice steroid pumped firearms that are no different than ones caught in the wild. You terk err jerbs!!
contrabasso
AK NO NEED SILLY KAPITALIST PIC A TINNY RAIL. AK IS FINE
WanderingMinds
Emotions usually allow us to miss the point.
Sinus23
If so then nobody would have died. Since those emotional would have "missed the point". :P
SoundFuture
Like how we ignore that tobacco kills more Americans per year than WWII?
SoundFuture
"...smoking is responsible for more than 480,000 deaths per year" http://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/fact_sheets/fast_facts/
xybolt
3400 in 5 weeks ? O__o'
Kimozabi
There are 270,000,000 owned firearms in the US.
danihalcyon
Around 30000 per year, 600 per week
spaghettiThunderbolt
US gov't stats put the number at 33,636 in 2014. Source: http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/injury.htm
MrWreckz
Murica
BKOBGoHAWKS
It's on twitter, isn't it?? Case closed.
Sandwich247
Well, it's any firearm death. There are a LOT if very stupid people in the US who end up hurting or killing themselves or others.
ChrisLucas1
Plenty.... people die every day from negligence. But there's a lot more people shooting each other than that, sadly.
[deleted]
[deleted]
ColdSectionModule
It's nearly all I've seen on my FB.
ColdSectionModule
It's nearly all I've seen on my FB.
[deleted]
[deleted]
sweetnaivety
I like very close by where that happened and was anxious for a list of the victims to find out if anyone I knew died. I put up the list so -
sweetnaivety
(2) others can find out, too, and also because each person had a little story about them. I thought people should know their stories.
totallymyfirstrodeo
That's kind, and I realize I'm lashing out unfairly. The last few days have been very difficult for the SB community.
sweetnaivety
if they had that one option to post something without getting points like someone suggested a while ago, I would have done that.
DaDisser
Which makes no sense unless they include gang fighting, and suicides.
tardis63
Stricter gun laws with heavier punishment for illegal ownership would discourage gang members from carrying guns
nynaeveSedai
I believe @DaDisser is trying to differentiate between accidental deaths by household firearms and intentional death/murder.
tardis63
"Household firearms" referred to civilian owned as opposed to military, I believe
KingoftheIntroverts
Why wouldn't you include them? If a gun was used as a device to kill someone, isn't that pretty clearly death by gun?
spaghettiThunderbolt
Right, forgot the suicidal and gang members don't count as people. Maybe, just maybe, limiting access to firearms will limit deaths?
almostsomething182
Gang members don't often have legal guns anyways. Suicides will happen regardless, counting them as gun deaths skews results.
KingoftheIntroverts
Studies have suggested that people without a "sure" way to kill themselves are less likely to try to commit suicide.
spaghettiThunderbolt
So you're saying if someone commits suicide with a gun, that isn't a gun death? Also, with a lower availability of legal firearms, gangs 1/?
spaghettiThunderbolt
would have a harder time obtaining them, especially if they use a non criminal of an arms dealer that buys legal guns and sells them. 2/2
spaghettiThunderbolt
would have a harder time obtaining them, especially if they use a non criminal of an arms dealer that buys legal guns and sells them. 2/2
spaghettiThunderbolt
would have a harder time obtaining them, especially if they use a non criminal of an arms dealer that buys legal guns and sells them. 2/2
BingleyBingleyBeep
Sorry to intrude here, but why wouldn't you include them if they were also caused by use of guns?
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[deleted]
Lorgramoth
Guys, I am of the opinion that both scenarios very much count and that neither colour nor state of mind are excuses to exclude them.
Lorgramoth
But to some people, these are 'reasons'. Don't be fooled by them. Every suicide is as tragic as every accidental incident.
imanatheistdebateme
Because people will commit suicide regardless of gun availability, and gang will kill each other regardless too.
JohnBlevins
They weren't CAUSED by guns.Gang violence is caused by dangerous criminals(Who don't need a gun to kill you) and suicides will(Maybe) be (1)
PurpleLays
Because those are not what gun control is targeting
BingleyBingleyBeep
The fact that people are violent doesn't detract in any way from the fact that they used guns to result in death and that's what in question
JohnBlevins
but in those cases removing guns from the equation doesn't necessarily mean fewer deaths. That's what matters when it comes to passing laws.
JohnBlevins
attempted even without a gun. That one is a little more sketchy on if it's relevant. A lot of suicides happen due to convenience. (2)
uchytjes
Did they use guns? If so, then it is gun violence. Want gang violence to stop? Support public education and welfare.
chardlz
The point is that that skews the data. The implication of NDGT's post is that we need stricter gun laws but stats revolving around say 1/?
BingleyBingleyBeep
It doesn't skew anything. Those people were still killed with guns.
chardlz
when you're explicitly using those stats to promote an agenda though it's misleading to the underlying point one is making.
chardlz
Illegally obtained weapons, suicides (where the only person injured would kill themselves with or without guns), and justified homicides 2/?
Patlabor
It is observably not true that suicidal people are just as likely to kill themselves if you take away their preferred method.
chardlz
Because those are either irrelevant deaths in comparison to the stricter laws or it serves the legal positive purpose of the guns. 3/?
fireraisr
Suicides skew your statistics because they likely would have done it with or without a gun. Bad data leads to false judgements
Electriccarsbestcars
Strong evidence shows that people frequently regret suicide attempts and guns take take the regret choice away.
mimomisu
oh come on, man. of course they wouldn't. As opportunity makes a thief, owning a gun when you're suicidal makes you dead
carbonmonoxidepoisoning
As a formerly suicidal person, 100% wrong. If I had access to a gun I'd definitely be dead. Death is scary but not if it only lasts a second
zagibu
Likely? No.
fireraisr
So you're telling me the gun drove them to suicide? TIL
MrRandom314159
Actually that's not true. Evidence suggests that people without an easy out... just sorta keep going. Like "Fuck it, dying's too hard."
fireraisr
who doesn't have an easy way out? I can think of three ways off the top of my head that are easier than guns
Electriccarsbestcars
It's entirely true. Women especially prefer neat clean deaths so no one has to clean up a body. But poisons fail more often than guns.
GunnersMateFirstClassPhillipAsshole
Actually there's strong evidence to show that isn't true. The more work/time someone has to put in to an attempt the less likely they will
[deleted]
[deleted]
GunnersMateFirstClassPhillipAsshole
>follow through. If they have time to reconsider, most will.
imanatheistdebateme
want to fail and get help.
imanatheistdebateme
A distinction needs to be made between people who use guns because they actually want to die, and people who do anything else because they
gmdave
Lots of attempted suicides don't work, sometimes the person recovers. You can't fail with a bullet to the dome, though.
fireraisr
Tell that to gabby giffords
MOTHERFUCKINGBERNIESANDERS
ooooh yes you can. as an emt, I've seen some shit. It's not pretty.
TinyFaceWiIlSmith
I know an EMT who responded to a call where a guy failed to commit suicide, because instead of killing himself, he put a bullet through >>
mitsycoon
Why are "Terrorism", "Guns", and "Firearms" capitalized? What does "household" mean here? How many "household Car" deaths in similar times?
IveBeenSlackingMyWholeLife
Who knows. Privately owned and held. About the same number. Any more "scathing questions?"
DaDisser
They are trying to make it seem like these were all done with the guns old people have under their beds instead of by like gangs and shit
rollercostarican
no, i think they were just trying to differentiate between war guns and easily obtained civilian non-automatic assault rifles
mitsycoon
Come to think of it, a citation of where these numbers came from might be nice for the scientist man to provide :)
rollercostarican
i think he would've if he was a politician, but as a random guy with a random opinion, probably not gonna get that.
tallestofdogs
Car deaths are largely accidental, whereas nearly 70% of homicides in the US are committed with firearms according to the FBI
DaDisser
Intention really doesn't matter when ppl you love are dead. You are either dead or you are not. No one cares if it was on purpose...
tallestofdogs
Sure they do, it's why murder and accidental deaths are punished differently
DaDisser
By the justice system, which is very often of a different belief than the masses. We are all aware that their "legal" punishments differ.
ParkerAdderson
it's like 'cold hard facts' need explanation and interpretation or something
TheAssassinArtemisEntreri
So your case is that we should not acknowledge gun deaths because people die in cars too? This is republican level stupid.
coolseb
Exactly. Tired of seeing this car and gun equation everywhere. The number of upvotes shows why Trump is doing well.
mitsycoon
No, I'm saying that looking at statistics in correlated pairs does not give a full picture of the problem. Don't put words in my mouth.
coolseb
Exactly. Tired of seeing this car and gun equation everywhere. The number of upvotes shows why Trump is doing well.
kantorr
The gun control argument is just a distraction. If we had no laws governing weapons, nothing would change.
Eldibs
Strawman fallacy. That's not what they said. They just asked if they were comparable.
TheAssassinArtemisEntreri
No shit Sherlock, he draws the comparison as a Red Herring fallacy, Mr. Fallacy Fallacy.
Shhbooms
You had me until you brought republican into it. I'm not one, but party stereotypes are the worst. Not all Republicans are stupid.
Shhbooms
Just like not all Democrats are bleeding heart PC cry babies.
TheAssassinArtemisEntreri
Statistically Republicans have tested significantly more stupid consistently. If you're open to new ideas, you learn more. If not, you don't
Shhbooms
Source?
cyberfluke
Not all, just the vast majority.
Cosmicpakete
A car is a machine for travelling and a gun is a machine for killing, thats a big diference
Skorpychan
You say it's a machine for travelling, but the local pigeon population says otherwise. They just don't seem to see or hear it...
mitsycoon
You make a good point. My questions were more related to the possibly misleading factoid nature of these tweets.
DaDisser
Not really. The difference is perceived need. We are all more likely to die via car than gun, but no one wants to walk anywhere.
erischilde
Killing by car is a byproduct. It's intended use is movement. A gun's sole intended use is killing.
lmGod
How many of these guns are illegally obtained and used by criminals? I wouldn't count that as a "household gun".
AuntSharron
A toddler has killed someone every week this year
AuntSharron
Sorry, *shot someone https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/10/14/people-are-getting-shot-by-toddlers-on-a-weekly-basis-this-year/
Moonkey
The sheer number of guns in circulation makes that much easier and more common. I think that's part of the point.
MisterLemons
What about the amount of fully automatics that have always been illegal
AdventureousYetiMan
80% of homicides are gang related. Out of accidental, justifiables, suicides, only 1712 die a year from non gang homocide out of 32000/year
cianmcintyre
Many illegally obtained guns were originally manufactured for consumers though.
Morrigi
Most guns used in homicides are obtained illegally.
Drpurrpurrpurr
The ease of purchase and the difficulty tracking and regulating make it hard to know, but many of the recent shootings were with legal guns.
HnngRightInTheFeels
Yes. Yes they were. But mass shootings don't make up 1% of murders a year.
Glumerlink
shootings in general are the issue, western europe has guns but they highly regulate them so gun violence is pretty fricken low
philhauss
Any TRUE Scientist would realize that gun violence is NOT EVEN CORRELATED to gun control. There are other issues at play.
HnngRightInTheFeels
Vermont has little control, and almost zero gun-violence. Guns are regulated in the US. Crims are gonna crim.
philhauss
I could give you examples of states with lots of gun control and high murder rates( detroit) or vise versa (Vermont).
ImgurMontoya
Exactly. No shit domestic violence causes more deaths than war and terrorism, no one thought otherwise.
Mynameisalwaysrelevent
This type of comment isn't helpful. There *shouldn't* be this many senseless deaths, we need a solution.
DaDisser
Its almost like there is...a...mental health problem in America
ImgurMontoya
I'm not saying there should be, but presenting that fact as if it were crazy and revolutionary is dishonest. Everyone knows this.
Mynameisalwaysrelevent
It is crazy. We shouldn't be desensitized to such a tragic loss of life. I don't think this is dishonest. We have a problem.
ImgurMontoya
I don't mean crazy as in unsettling, I mean crazy as if it were new knowledge, or revolutionary, the other word I used.
MrxHighway91
All he did was present a fact, no spin. You take it hhow you choose. Thats always been his style.
ImgurMontoya
He presented it as to intentionally make it sound revolutionary. Of course violence kills more Americans than war. That's not new.
DaDisser
"No spin" They way it is presented is obviously to get a reaction the way of pushing for anti gun or more gun laws lol
fireraisr
"The earth is overpopulated" they said "Too many people are dying" they said. Make up your freaking minds
scabab
in other news: "america's dismissal of its gun problem reached new levels of cynicism and abstraction today"
zigzagler
I don't want more death, I just want fewer babies.
StandardDeviant
America's population is actually pretty stable. India and SE Asia are the problem areas.
TheBlackShakes
And Africa
StandardDeviant
Yeah, that too
snarflex
"World population in 2300 could stabilize at 9 billion, UN estimates". So, yeah, let's stop killing people to make it... more stable-r?
danceswithkittons
He is making a point about gun control in the states.
JayEnfield
It turns out that according to science, the key to killing overpopulation is to reduce infant mortality.
andyar
stop making more humans is the answer
HurryUpIgotNutstoBustButtsTOfuckNDslutsToFuckinUppercut
Keep the guns. Thin out some pop
knive404
Eaeth is not overpopulated, we just have really inefficient/hazardous means of production and housing.
TheBlackShakes
http://www.popsci.com/environment/article/2012-10/daily-infographic-if-everyone-lived-american-how-many-earths-would-we-need
dolphinitely
We need a new plague
TheBlackShakes
We'll probably get one, too http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2015/06/150616-connecting-dots-disease-ebola-mers-pandemics/
Chronk
NoOtherExplanationIsPossible
Butthurts not getting the joke.
plantshop
Or more gays
ScaleScentedAnalDildo
The Forever War?
dolphinitely
+1 for that reference
dwolnation
It's gods way of saying oops I made too many
SnowAndShadows
Pretty sure they did. That's their solution to an overpopulated earth
KeeleonOhms
I'd like to see these percentages, so they're less biased to prove a point. you know like science is supposed to be...
fireraisr
The science is settled. Don't question the numbers.
KeeleonOhms
Populations have grown. More people have died because there are more people. If rates are the same there is no change.
fireraisr
Yep, that was sarcasm.
cianmcintyre
Earth is overpopulated and population growth is expected to stabilise in the next 50 years. There's no need for the final solution just yet.
CheesusChrisp
Fucking exactly.
jaggedcow
Technology is allowing us to deal with the population, but not the deaths
BruceJennersBoobies
I don't think the solution to overpopulation is genocide....
fireraisr
Yep, 0.01% of the population per year = genocide. It may not be pretty but it isn't genocide.
MogBearPig
Read inferno by Dan brown. Or just find the last chapter and read that. That's an interesting way to solve the population issue
BHObiWanKendoobie
The earth was never overpopulated, the rate of birth was just high and people are greedy
ElbowdeepinElmo
"Earth's overpopulated but I think you should go somewhere else to take care of it"
Captainpoopypants
How often do you type your username?
ElbowdeepinElmo
Not very often - that'd be a pain to do ^_^
MOTHERFUCKINGODIN
People totally overestimate overpopulation. It's actually more mismanagement of resources over consuming.
zagibu
No it's not. It's not just about hunger, it's also about not living next to a fucking Volcano or on an island with average temp of 8°C.
[deleted]
[deleted]
zagibu
Right, because all space is equal. It just needs that ground below your feet, right?
[deleted]
[deleted]
TheBlackShakes
And the fact that modern ways of life produce a lot of pollution & have a significant impact on the ecosystem
AlexandriaGoodwin
We need to rid the world of warning labels and let Darwin figure it out
fireraisr
First step, take a dose of bees and peanuts and try to call me in the morning
AlexandriaGoodwin
Having allergies & controlling them is completely different than having to put a warning label on a baby seat "dont leave on table edge" -.-
fireraisr
Sorry I thought we were still talking about population reduction. My bad.
peebottle
This is why I'm for fat acceptance and anti vaccines its basically stupid people trying to kill themselves off.. I'm cool with that.
KarmaSutures
And also the medical resource depletion that comes with treating obesity over the span of their lives...
Ihavewaytoomanyfavoritestosort
Anti-vaccine is stupid people killing their kids off becauss the parents were vaccinated already.
KarmaSutures
And also the medical resource depletion that comes with treating obesity over the span of their lives...
chemistsdoitintesttubes
The problem is when their stupidity threatens innocent people who can't get the vaccine for one reason or another. Otherwise, yeah. I agree.
hearthstoneaccount3
Well if they can't get the vaccines they die and then there won't be any people who can't get the vaccines left right?
chemistsdoitintesttubes
Jesus, that's dark, but very true. I'd say that's an end worth avoiding. Vaccination, itself, flies in the face of natural selection.
Afroman8675
Also everyone needs to get vaccines or they don't work.
chemistsdoitintesttubes
The vaccines work for those who receive them. If you have too many unvaccinated, you lose herd immunity. That may be what you're thinking of
AwesomeName
Earth is overpopulated, but everyone alive has the right to live (and live well). Is that so difficult?
BlindGoldfish
No
ytseone
"Don't tell me what to do with my genitals," they said. "Stop reproducing," they said.
snarflex
"World population in 2300 could stabilize at 9 billion, UN estimates". So, yeah, let's stop killing people to make it... more stable-r?
BlindGoldfish
Yes
GreenZebraCoconuts
It's more about reducing births. The people already here are fairly irrelevant in the big picture. They'll die soon enough anyway
adavaas
You have the right to live (and live well), but god forbid you actually wish to effectively defend your life from unprovoked aggression.
Snarkoleptic
It's not overpopulated. It's a myth. The problem is the overuse of natural resources.
snarflex
Correct, even the UN says the world population is stabilizing until 2300 at least.
TheBlackShakes
Overpopulation is not a myth. http://oyc.yale.edu/molecular-cellular-and-developmental-biology/mcdb-150
BhataktiAtma
+1
fireraisr
"Decrease the surplus population" they said. "But only in America" they said.
fencerman
In terms of the impact on the environment, reducing the number of americans would be more beneficial than reducing the number of africans.
Snarkoleptic
Even better would be to put those trillion-dollar government subsidies into renewable energy and manufacturing. But of course not.
fencerman
Well sure, killing people off is generally a stupid way to solve any problem. But if we're going to kill people, might as well be accurate.
gratuitousarp
"They said," they said.
fireraisr
I know! That's what I keep telling people! Glad we agree.
HitlersArtCritic
Couldn't we just do something like have people in the world take sand from the ocean floor, and deposit it one spot to make land?
fireraisr
That would destabilize our orbit and kill us all in a fiery death spiral into the sun
NarcissusInc
HitlersArtCritic
We lose beach sand from ocean currents anyway so just dig it up and drop it somewhere more shallow.
mcgarry92
Well yes it is difficult. There is limited room and resources.
Dispari
Room is actually not a problem. We have toooooooooons of empty space. Resources and infrastructure are more of an issue though.
Baconmac1234
Yeah we have empty space but we can't really move people around without violence can we?
Dispari
We can't even exist in the same space without violence.
KevynDietz
Actually, thanks to advances in GMO crops we can potentially feed another two billion or so people on about 5% less land.
XenomorphZZ
Until we run out of petrofertilizers... then we have real problems.
crazyhornedlizardlady
And still negatively impact the planet.
BhataktiAtma
+1 from me, there are a lot of other issues than food to be worried about.
TheBlackShakes
But by 2050 we're going to have at least 3 billion more people
KevynDietz
There are other options to further increase total crop yield such as vertical farming and hydroponics. It's not as bad as people think.
Hiynastrike
you have to take into consideration that not all gun based deaths are people killing other people, some deaths are suicide
HellomynameisSatan
In that case gun deaths in merca is justified. All thanks to you, we can all sleep well tonight.
thedewsta
Most
fairybug
And some are accidents or self-defense.
lapomm
Yep, true, but it's kind of relevant to the point too. Suicides rates are too damn high, and some would be avoided without guns available.
smaug777000
Well the gun related homicide rate today is half of what it was in 1993, so we're making progress, Neil.
LikeJDlovesTurk
some of the reduced homicide rate is due to saving more shooting victims than ever before...thanks to dispatch emts nurses & Drs etc
SuPERSaYinSeAn
Not to mention we are not always at war. Household guns are all usually in the household.
cianmcintyre
America has been fairly consistently involved in some war throughout the 20th and 21st centuries.
SuPERSaYinSeAn
I guess were just that good at war. Even our civilians are a damn good shot.
DVSBSTrD
That doesn't make it any better :(
LizardEnterprises
Absolutely. But most suicides are impulsive, not well thought out. Not having a gun dramatically decreases the successful suicide rate.
snowflake101
Suicides are still people killing people :)
CherrySnowCone
Lol I like that your statement implies suicide is less tragic :)
EricEss
Half the deaths are suicides. Another, very large, percentage are urban gun battles between street gangs.
ScriptVariable
66% of firearm deaths are suicides. Of that 33%, over 60% are gang related. So 11% of firearm deaths is their soapbox.
LandoCallipygian
Because that's better..
CaptainAsshole
Was actualy looking this up the other day. Claimed to be 62%
dropandgivemesexy
Some unintentional too, hunting accidents, misfires, stupidity
ImMrbulldops
but thats only about 1%, though the police are responsible for 1 to 2% as well
dropandgivemesexy
1 or 2 percent of. 1.3 million is still 13000-26000 deaths though, so I'd still say it's significant
Dayrest
So that makes it better somehow???
Hagge47
*most of them are
ForTheSakeOfHumanity
MOST are suicides. In fact, almost twice as much
tooomanysteves
Which makes it ok?
Golidog
It's really, really hard to commit suicide with a gun when you don't have a gun :/
gondring
Yeah, you don't die as much when you commit suicide by hanging, I guess.
Golidog
That's a bit like comparing salad with cheesecake, you can eat both but one gets you fatter a lot quicker. Ropes also have other uses.
SpecialAgentSmecker
Roughly 50%, on average. Plus, a large chunk of the remainder are criminals who get shot as a result.
Toadz321
Suicides are still terrible
ILikeToBowl
How many of those are intruders in your house that are killed with a household gun? Ya know, the purpose of a household gun...
hajime666
https://www.reddit.com/r/dgu
ILikeToBowl
Very nice. Thanks.
itsybitsyspider
I'm surprised they didn't have the Moore, OK attack. A man didn't use a gun but beheaded a woman and was going to behead another when --
itsybitsyspider
-- he was shot. Had that man with a gun not been there, more people would have been killed.
BlackHartMTB
And accidents... But is that your argument? It's not convincing.
HerrDoktorSchnurrbart
How is that any better?
DiesInUserSub
Suicide is illegal
LoudAngryJerk
in fact, most gun deaths in the US are suicides, by more than twice as much
EricWatson
Something like 2/3 are suicide/gang violence.
JJWoodSculpture
MOST gun deaths in America are suicides. That doesn't help foment the anti-gun hysteria though.
68WmedicMelpenny
Thank you. I don't know much about these statistics. Im prior service, properly trained with a fire arm. Im a woman living alone with a 1/
68WmedicMelpenny
2/ 2 yo. I have a small hand gun that is loaded but stays in a safe in my closet. I keep a bat next to my bed.
itsybitsyspider
I live in a very rural area on my own. I have a small revolver that I keep hidden away. I hope I never have to kill it but we get the --
itsybitsyspider
-- rare rabid animal. Mostly skunks.
JJWoodSculpture
MOST gun related deaths are suicides.
Tunisia
Yeah, but I suspect there would be fewer successful suicides if nobody had access to a method where you painlessly push a small button.
mrwigglypants
Do we really care? If people wanna get out let them. Who are we to say "hey you need to not do this"
Tunisia
NOT saying that shooting yourself in the head doesn't hurt- just that it doesn't hurt while you're pulling the trigger (unlike cutting).
SpecialAgentSmecker
*Glances at Japan and South Korean suicide rates* There are some problems with your theory...
icanc4
Not sure how well suicide stats from homogeneous and highly structured societies like Japan and Korea translate to North America.
JLimages
People will use other methods then
AnneFranklyMyDearIDontGiveADamn
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15159">5159703">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15159703 http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp0805923
fakebecauseidontwantpeopletoknow
Taking away the easiest method would still reduce them
cianmcintyre
Some would, but a large portion would actually either fail or not attempt.
AnneFranklyMyDearIDontGiveADamn
summary of the sources provided: guns are the most successful method and availability of methods increases risk of suicide.
Sithrak
Suicides skew the numbers, so we can have lovely posts like this. He's a scientist, he knows what he's doing, he just doesn't care it seems.
seemill
Remove access to a gun from a suicidal person and the have time to re-think it. Just like coal burning ovens in Europe.
TheyCallMeJimmyButMyNameIsJames
But this is not what the NDT and the left are saying. They are saying remove access to everyone (except criminals who don't give a shit).
ReLeVaNtUSERNAMESareReLeVaNT
When Australia banned guns the suicide rate didn't go down they just hanged themselves more http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12882416
TheyCallMeJimmyButMyNameIsJames
Don't go around confusing everyone with facts!
NotAPervert
One of the highest demographics of suicides, the elderly, also have on access to prescribed medication to OD on. Why wouldn't they switch?
verenelda
Guns are more likely to be 100% effective in an attempt. ODing takes time. Time that the person can call for help or be found and revived.
CaptainAsshole
So people who are done with this works are less likely to suffer if shooting themselves. Thank you!
NotAPervert
That's not at all what I asked though. These are old people who medically are much less likely to survive an OD, and want to die.
cianmcintyre
Suicide by ODing has a much lower "success" rate since most people change their minds and get medical help in time to be saved.
kahless01
most deaths are suicide. if guns werent available those people would find other ways. many would be less successful and theyde try it again
SuperMylo64
Yeah, so like... why even bother.... I mean if you can't stop something 100% of the time, why even try? Lets just keep shrugging.
LadyGreyduck
Because that makes it better.
flyingdutchfrenchman
And they are as problematic as the rest
K4Y53R50Z3
Are you implying that gun control prevents suicide? South Korea, Japan. Next.
imanatheistdebateme
People have the right to die. Living is not compulsory.
Catfactory
But the choice to die should be made after a process of sound deliberation, not a bout of depression near a too-accessible gun.
imanatheistdebateme
Agreed, except people don't generally kill themselves in a bout of depression.
Catfactory
Lots of people do. Many people who attempt suicide try to avert the fact after the attempt, calling 911 on themselves etc.
snarflex
I thought imgur, being progressive, was pro-suicide? Or is it just anti-unassisted suicide? I'm confused.
freshlancer
agreed, but it still obs his point. If you're to the mental/emotional point of actually attempting suicide, lack of a gun won't save yo
PatrikLilja
It actually does save people.
flyingdutchfrenchman
I think I saw some studies showing that guns is the favorite suicide method because it's much easier, and people are more scared of /1
flyingdutchfrenchman
proceeding with the suicide if they are doing it another way /2
freshlancer
Guns are the highest for successful suicides (usually by men) pills are the most common attempts (usually by women).
freshlancer
Didn't mean to hit submit... "still defeats his point" and "won't save you"
slurmlover
Actually there is a lot of research that shows this is not true.
bobbi21
Actually yes it does... By more than homicides actually...
TheGhostofElizabethShue
Suicides are still preventable deaths. Guns are too quick, many would be avoided if they took a more time consuming method. 1/2
boddCoward
if someone wants to kill themselves, who are you to tell them they cant?
TheGhostofElizabethShue
You're probably thinking "well they'll just kill themselves some other way" but it doesn't work like that. See gas ovens for an example. 2/2
boddCoward
if someone wants to kill themselves, who are you to tell them they cant?
TheGhostofElizabethShue
A human being capable of empathy? Also, suggesting someone don't blow their brains out in a low moment isnt denying someone the right to die
ImMrbulldops
should we outlaw bridges because people can jump off them?
TheGhostofElizabethShue
No, but if you had thousands of people jumping off a bridge every month you might put up a net.
philhauss
And then people jump off buildings. And then people chug bleach. And then people slice their wrists. And then people jump onto highways.
philhauss
If you're such a staunch fucking liberal, look up the statistics on this that you so worship. Suicide rate is independent of method. Fact.
TheGhostofElizabethShue
I've already linked evidence that isn't true in another comment replying to the first. So read that if you're not committed to being a dick.
Animatronio
IDF stopped letting its soldiers take home their firearms over the weekend and Israel's suicide rate dropped by a staggering 40%.
Animatronio
I did make a mistake there. The rate of suicide among IDF soldiers dropped, not sure what effect it had on the general population.
JohnBlevins
It's a convenience thing. The same thing happened when Britain banned gas ovens (Which were a popular method of suicide)
kantorr
No one in the US military is allowed to take their weapon home at any point.
calmmelody
I'll have to disagree with you there. I have a friend who's a ranger that has taken his service side arm home.
calmmelody
Though he did purchase it privately and chose to bring it when he would go out on a tour. Then again, he was also EOD.
szlash280z
What kind of Ranger are you talking about? Park Ranger or Army Ranger?
MagicalMage
Well, seeing as the IDF isn't American I'm not sure what your point is.
kantorr
:| seeing as the IDF isn't american, I'm not sure how comparing the IDFs suicide rates to american suicides relates
MagicalMage
It's showing that when guns are taken away, suicide rates drop.
transference
The point (if true) is that suicidal people without guns are less likely to succeed at killing themselves.
offmylobbyboy
The point they're making is that absence of guns resulted in lower suicide rates, therefore absence of guns in US houses may cause the same
kantorr
Like other people said: why blame guns (the tool) for a mental health issue? Is it the rope's fault if one hangs themselves?
offmylobbyboy
You raise a good point, if someone does hang themselves we don't blame the rope. However if you think about mental health facilities 1/?
kantorr
Why dont people push to have more regs on cars when a drunk driver kills a family in a wreck? Same thing. Car was the tool, yet we focus....
kantorr
On drunk driving as it is the cause. So why do we focus on guns when mental health is the real issue?
kantorr
This "debate" is a political agenda. Guns arent the cause of suicide, so how about we work on fixing mental health, not stripping liberties.
hajime666
What liberties are they trying to strip? Only answer I get is, "they're trying to take our guns!'
hajime666
What liberties are they trying to strip? Only answer I get is, "they're trying to take our guns!'
hajime666
I have a CPL. Uncomfortably easy to get.
notme222
*most. Suicides are about double the homicide rate. Something that's conveniently obscured to make a point.
authweight
To me, this is really the best point for gun control.
Kairamek
3,400 deaths by terrorism in 14 years vs 3,400 deaths by homicide in 15 weeks is still aweful.
spookyu
That seems more commentary on society than firearms.
wambu
And many of the homicides are drug/gang/domestic-violence related. Solve those problems and those gun deaths disappear.
tardis63
Which is why a mental health screening is needed in gun sales
stonerlibtard
So the suicide devalues the death? Also, taking away the suicide deaths the numbers are still far larger than the deaths from war
JustinStaggs
it devalues the point they are trying to make. They try to make it sound as if everyone is just running around shooting each other.
stonerlibtard
Or their point is that people need to acknowledge that this is a problem rather than saying the numbers make it seem worse than it is.
Drpurrpurrpurr
Actually the fact that gun suicides are so high is a big point for gun control advocates.
papabrenden
As it should be
kyrtian
I'm not laying down my rights because some people are too troubled to face life
Bloodandpheromones
Are you pro-suicide, then? Otherwise, the point stands.
opad
I'm not a fan of suicide or guns. And I think that telling people that a loved one killing themselves is it's most likely target-may matter
notme222
A) I'm on the fence, and B) depends on the point. "Gun Deaths" numbers are often used to imply "you could be the victim".
Geistbar
Nothing in the images implies that. The facts are presented in an accurate fashion. Seems the problem is your preconceived assumptions.
notme222
Nothing in my comment implies I was speaking purely about the images. Perhaps the problem is *your* preconceived assumptions.
dinobots56
NY has some of the strictest gun control policies and yet I've known several suicides by gun..
SomethingWittyIDK
It doesn't matter how strict one state makes their laws if you can just go one state over and get one. We need national regulation
dinobots56
Or just use someone elses gun. My sister used her boyfriends gun when she killed herself. I agree we need to have stricter gun control laws.
LizardEnterprises
2) Perfect Solution Fallacy. Just because gun control doesn't reduce the gun suicide rate to zero doesn't mean it has no benefits whatsoever
LizardEnterprises
1) Argument from Anecdote. How many people you know about who killed themselves does not constitute statistics.
dinobots56
That would be relevant if I had used it as a statistic.. I didn't though. But nice use of that imgur post I'm sure you saw the other day!
LizardEnterprises
Also yeah, I've had one of those posts saved for months. Awesome post.
LizardEnterprises
If you weren't using it as a statistic, it doesn't belong in this debate at all. This debate deserves facts, not random stories
Zioniu
Maybe, but are all suicide via gunshot? Likely not, but I may be wrong.
fitgirl1
But its a highly effective suicide method - making it so much more likely to result in actual death rather than just an attempt. ie bad
notme222
No, guns are about half of all suicides in the US. And 60% of murders. But that makes 20.5k gun suicide vs 11.2k gun homicides.
Zioniu
Cool. Thanks for the stats.
NotaClipaMagazine
Just for a bit of perspective, about 88k people die from alcohol each year.
spookyu
Guns are half of SUCCESSFUL suicides, but poison (overdosing nonprescription drugs usually) make up almost 80% of attempts.
notme222
I didn't know that. Good info.
LizardEnterprises
Not obscured, irrelevant. People who don't own guns are much less likely to kill themselves. Suicides are usually not premeditated.
CaptainAsshole
I own several and look at me all here n shit.
CaptainAsshole
Actually of all the suicides I've known (sad really considering I'm in 20s) few were with guns most drugs/ pills even though had guns...
LizardEnterprises
Argument from anecdote. Your personal experiences do not constitute data.
LizardEnterprises
Actual data here: http://lostallhope.com/suicide-statistics/us-methods-suicide
LizardEnterprises
Affirming the consequent. Owning a gun makes people who try to commit suicide more successful. It does not make healthy people suicidal.
CaptainAsshole
Do not we all strive to be successful at the things we do?
mmmcunty
I think he is saying maybe some of those would have been prevented too.
FarkasMacTavish
If somebody's going to commit suicide, they're going to commit suicide. Owning a firearm has nothing to do with it.
K4Y53R50Z3
Making drugs illegal has stopped all drug use too. It's just a utopia or here now.
TheyCallMeJimmyButMyNameIsJames
No he's not. He is relying on the people to be fooled that he is talking about murder.
weputliquidpaperonabeeanditdied
Maybe we should ban ropes, knifes, and sleeping pills while were at it
boddCoward
why is it a problem if someone kills themselves?
loma45
Because it's usually as a result of mental illness (depression), and we'd much rather treat them than let them die.
boddCoward
who is we? you just said that not all suicides are caused by mental illness, who are you to deny someone sane of ending their life?
loma45
Most people in a civilized society don't want mentally ill people killing themselves. If someone is sane, terminally ill, etc that's diff
CleverMann
Yeah suicide success rates are way lower when a gun isn't involved
ThatAssholeOverThere
Lol no. If someone was going to kill themselves do you think not having a gun would stop them?
mmmcunty
Sometimes
dickiedoodah
Yes. Do some research. Go look at the effect limiting paracetamol sales had on suicide rates in the UK. Make it harder, less people do it.
quasiix
Studies say very much Yes.
maplepancakes
They would at least have to think about a method a bit more, which would make some people re-evaluate their choices. It won't save 1/2
maplepancakes
everyone but it would save the impulsive ones who just want a quick out. 2/2
OptimusPrimeLord
This is actually what is mostly prevented, homocide rates barly drop under gun control, but suicide rates drop substantially.
KharnApproves
People intend on suicide are going to kill themselves regardless of accessibility to guns.
Catfactory
But experts say that most suicides are in some real sense opportunistic: without guns there are significantly fewer successful suicides.
mmmcunty
If you meant intend then I'd say sometimes. If you meant intent I'd say probably.
KharnApproves
I meant on intent.
WardSharlow
The answer on that is not clear: http://www.nationalreview.com/article/423192/gun-control-suicide-rates-ezra-klein
mmmcunty
I didn't say whether it would or wouldn't, just that he did. I'm pro gun ownership but also see reason in gun control.
TheyCallMeJimmyButMyNameIsJames
Tip: Ezra Klein is a liar.
BitterTruth
Someone who is suicidal to the point to where they would shoot themselves, they would also find another way to do it without a gun.
quasiix
Not always. Been there, didn't have a gun, ended up calling hotline instead.
BookerLegit
Many people who attempt and fail say that if they'd just thought about it more it wouldn't have happened. It's impulsive.
Teeo215
I work in an ER. People will still try to kill themselves.
BirdsBeerandBitches
So do I. If an attempt to help others requires a 100% success rate with no relapses, you and I would be out of jobs.
mmmcunty
I'm pro gun ownership but can see reason in gun control. Won't stop suicide but might prevent some was the intent, I think.
SufferinSappho
Gun suicide is the most successful method, and suicide fatalities are much higher in states with higher rates of gun ownership~
Stonetaku420
id have to disagree. not having the ease of a gun to end your life with can stop yo from making a horrible mistake, im speaking from exp.
ssaberhagen
As a gun owner, most suicides by gun are because it's an easy fast solution to a temp problem and they are easy to get and death is faster
Teeo215
Tell that to the multiple hangings, self inflicted stab wounds, and (not exaggerating) biweekly overdoses. We see only 120-170 pts a day.
SufferinSappho
Not sure what your point is. People kill themselves more often with guns still, and more often i places with more guns.
Stonetaku420
just adds to my point. you only see the ones who went through and were committed to it. but you dont see the ones that didnt and could have
Lorithias
Ofc but maybe with less "sucess" ^^
Whitejack
That's not the point. Tired of this mentality of "make it perfect or keep it as it is".
Teeo215
If you're serious about it, access to a firearm won't change anything. Just had a kid jump in front of a semi a few months ago.
lowflyingbombs
Ease of access makes anything easier.
JustADumbRename
1. That's not true. 2. Think of how many tens of thousands "not that serious about it" HAVE done it due to ease of gun suicide.
LetsWatchCartoons
In old London the most popular way to commit suicide was sticking your head in an oven. They got rid of that type of oven & the rate dropped
zenunchucks
very interesting
birdbrainedphoenix
The rate of suicides dropped, or the rate of suicide by sticking your head in an oven dropped?
LetsWatchCartoons
Rate of suicides. The article I read explained that suicide is often a spur of the moment decision so putting an obstacle in the way (1/2)
LetsWatchCartoons
(2/2) or removing an easy means is often enough to deter it. They removed an easy means causing rates to fall until the next easy thing came
Perpichrator
That sounds like a terrible way to go...
JustDeathAndTaxes
You breath in charcoal fumes. Pass out and never wake up. Almost instant apparently.
LetsWatchCartoons
As I understand it had something to do with the type of gas making it a quick and easy suicide
wompwompwomp
The other comment is correct. You don't roast your head, you inhale the fumes.
dickiedoodah
True. And more recently exactly the same observed when the limit on the number of paracetamol you can buy at one time was limited in the UK.
K4Y53R50Z3
Temporary results. You cant ban the idea of suicide.
insegrevious
I run my own teamspeak, and I banned all suicide. So... YOUR STATEMENT IS WRONG
dickiedoodah
Make suicide harder and the number of suicides falls. You can ignore the data in favour of opinion if you wish, your choice.
davidabeats
Wait a second, do you have a link? That sounds kind of fishy actually.
MoonStruckFool
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/06/magazine/06suicide-t.html info you want is on page 2, but the whole thing is worth reading
davidabeats
thx mate, I'll have to read this another time, but I'll keep it in mind