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Feb 12, 2025 10:21 AM
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trippingthelightfantastic
KPodol
Well, for some weird reason i think the guy is center-left, no idea why though. Talk about blowing his own trumpet...
woodintunoit
And remember: the rest of the world doesnt consider the Democratic party to BE left. But rather a center-right party.
ProfessorMuChao
David Roberts. Hands down one of the *best* journalists covering energy issues, decarbonization, and the current energy transition. I highly recommend checking out his work if this is a topic that interests you!
or0b0ur0s
We let it get so bad - all of us, collectively - that nothing short of FDR-level reforms will make Dems actually look like the Left. Short of that, they look like the neoliberal, status-quo-serving Elites they are controlled by. It's no excuse for siding with the Fascists; that's still a sign of deadly ignorance (which they've, of course, manufactured via control of the media & attacks on education at all levels). But a choice between "things get MUCH worse, but they'll tell you >
or0b0ur0s
comforting lies about that" vs. "We'll tell you the truth, more or less, but things will only stop getting a lot worse and only get a little worse from now on; best we can do, sorry" isn't going to cut it.
ColdCast
There are many individual democrats in the Congress that I have tremendous respect for. Dozens who are routinely on the right side of policy, who are working hard every day to use their office to improve things in the world. My disgust with the party at large has everything to do with their inability to grapple with the changing realities of politics in America. Rules and norms are a two-way street.
fartharder
It's as if one party in the US contains the full gamut of legitimate political discourse at the moment while the other one is an arsonist who was just handed operation of the fire department.
Imustntrunaway
It's really sad that the only option we have that isn't fascists is simply, 'this group aren't quite assholes to the same degree', and that's the best we can ever hope for? nuts
Zeddicuszull
Yes, it is sad watching leftists absolutely refuse to understand at how great Democrats are and how much they have accomplished. Just neverending soul crushing negativity regardless of how Democrats behave.
or0b0ur0s
We let it get so bad - all of us, collectively - that nothing short of FDR-level reforms will make Dems actually look like the Left. Short of that, they look like the neoliberal, status-quo-serving Elites they are controlled by. It's no excuse for siding with the Fascists; that's still a sign of deadly ignorance (which they've, of course, manufactured via control of the media & attacks on education at all levels). But a choice between "things get MUCH worse, but they'll tell you >
jmneglia
There's deserved scorn for Dems, particularly when it's clear higher ups in the party are serving capital's best interests.
However, way too many people refuse to believe that regular voters actually *can* influence a political party through sustained, popular pressure, and instead decide to stay home, not vote, go third party, disengage entirely, etc., then wonder why people in power end up listening to those with money, who ARE engaged. Then we don't do any self reflection.
KPodol
Capitalist always listen to people with money, that's the entire point behind neoliberal capitalism. On one side you have economical liberalism where it is though (wrongfully) that the market regulate itself and the government doesn't have the power to influence it. And neoliberalism, where the government influence the market in favour of the private companies to create more value, to the point of privatization of public service (US already WAY past that).
jmneglia
You'll never hear me say that money doesn't have an outsized role in our system, especially post Citizens United, but the entire point is that just saying "it's how neoliberalism is, why get involved" is what makes it even worse. Even in this screwed up system, public pressure from constituents *is* effective, but it actually has to exist, and Dem and liberal/left leaning voters tend to be pretty inconsistent, at best, at applying that pressure compared with conservatives.
whatsisname
A big complaint that has been raised is that the democrats top-down, consultant driven leadership has shut out the influence of their supporters. They are shit at finding out "what's important" and its just "give us money give us money give us money", and when the only way to put on that 'sustained popular pressure' is to note vote, 2024 is what we get.
jmneglia
Not sure how not voting at all puts any pressure on them. All it does with any political party is drive them further toward whomever/whatever does offer them support; the message they get from non-voters tends to be "don't bother reaching out to me, it'll cost too much time/money/energy to activate me."
kojenk
sure, but then they pull shit like this
NopeForever
The Dems are the good guys.
qwertdeep
Lesser of two evils* no good guy would ever support a genocide
Zeddicuszull
The Dems are massively the good guys. Everything good and wholesome about America is only possible because of them.
WhoHim
Everyone: Hey could you stand up for us and do some actual leadership maybe say and do the things we want like working on basic human rights issues?
Dems: No and why are you being so mean to me? Can't you see how much worse they are?
Zeddicuszull
Dems: Sure, and here is a bunch of laws that stand up for people and show off actual leadership.
Leftists: NO! Not good enough! We demand ideological purity!
WhoHim
Leftist (looks at other Western Nations): maybe some of that?
Dems: Sorry. Basic health, housing and education needs for everyone are too extreme. Here are some other fundamental rights most of you should have had 100 years ago, tho so you're welcome.
Zeddicuszull
Dems: Again, here are some actual legislation and actual policies that benefit the whole of the nation.
Leftists: AAAaaaaaaa, still not good enough! We demand ideological purity and to treat politics as tribal as possible!
WhoHim
Leftists: up to 700K homeless people are on the street
Dems: We cancelled a bunch of college debt
Leftists: That's awesome, now about those unhoused folks
Dems: Is nothing good enough for you?
Zeddicuszull
Dems: Here is a once in a generation investment into infrastructure.
Leftists: Not good enough! We want ideological purity!
pleaseuseotherdoor
Republicans are largely evangelical Christians, who are programmed from brith to be highly susceptible to group think and cultism. They rally easily behind a figurehead and are almost unshakable in their devotion. This is their strength. Any criticism is dismissed without examination. The religious are will always fall for extremism irrespective of the religion or the extremity. Religion values non-critical thinking and feelings over facts. Like candy from a baby, as they say.
frightlever
American politics is kinda obtuse looking in from the outside. On the one hand you have a party which is funded by a bunch of billionaires, has career politicians in charge of the party, most of whom are also millionaires and have been in their jobs for decades, while on the other hand you have the same.
Zeddicuszull
Which is only true if you are politically illiterate and refuse to pay attention to what Democrats are doing with legislation.
frightlever
The Democratic party isn't funded by billionaires and run by millionaires? Pelosi isn't the gold standard in stock picking? And what are Democrats doing with legislation? You must be glad of all that maternity leave and free at the point of use healthcare the rest of the civilised world has.
Zeddicuszull
Yes, this exact illiteracy. You assume, without evidence, that Democrats are incapable of taking rich people money while also legislating in a manner that is disadvantageous to rich people.
They do that constantly. You just don't notice.
frightlever
You're neither answering my question or revealing what ground-breaking legislation is happening. But I'm politically illiterate? Give examples of what they've done, because the examples of what they haven't are in open view in countries all around the world.
Zeddicuszull
See? You are assuming without evidence. You are politically illiterate and are not paying to what Democrats are doing and did. The fact that you had to ask me to give you examples is you helping make my point. You don't know.
Chereazi
Yup.
And people didn't get smarter through this result, they keep falling deeper into that hole, helping fascism to stay in power...
Lord, please let it rain brain...
PaperinoVB
God: "Best I can do is bird flu, or an asteroid. Your choice."
Hayashima
Can we build a rocket to redirect the asteroid? ...no, not away from Earth, I want it to land directly on the RNC.
PlacentaEaters
Asteroid please, just end it quickly
PaperinoVB
It will not be quick. Every asteroid big enough would have been already detected. Relevant XKCD - and it's the newest one: https://m.xkcd.com/3049/
Addmagnet
I laughed like a drain at "Bad news for your species ..... Bad news for your phylum"
PaperinoVB
I said it before, Randall Munroe is a genius.
VaultGirl69
I've always disliked that we only have two parties. It invites this deep tribalism and doomed rhetoric.
qwertdeep
It sounds counterintuitive but a two party system is less democratic than a one party system and definitely less democratic than a multiparty system. In the other 2 types of systems, the parties change for the voters and actually listen to them. In this 2 party system the party blames the voters for not voting for them whilst they shift to the right to chase the other party.
VaultGirl69
It just becomes less about the issues and more about "my side". In a multi-party system, if something is generally a bad idea, the voters will split up into different groups and break down the "I only vote this way all the time" rhetoric.
qwertdeep
Very true. Politics in the US has just become another “your side vs my side” thing like a sport.
A multi party system has actual competition between polices, although it can be flawed with first past the post voting. In Democratic one party systems, you forget about the parties and focus solely on the policies and issues.
VaultGirl69
How is a one party system democratic? Are you talking about the literal term for democracy where everyone has the same vote? I'm not aware of a nation that does such a thing.
qwertdeep
The role of the party in a one party democracy would be to ensure that the people can freely and fairly vote on issues that are of interest to them. It has a higher focus on people’s committees and congresses. We don’t hear much about these systems because we live in representative democracies and we’ve been taught that this is the only way.
Multiple countries have tried one party systems, it’s often implemented post revolution in countries. An interesting example was/
gingen
I mean considering the dems' main goal for the past few elections has been to try and convince the moderate rights to vote for them instead of standing on left facing policy that actually matters to their voter base, says a lot. Dems do deserve blame for their lack of action, mainly because our country is a two party system. They're the only other party (that isn't considered a wasted vote) that could stand against the GQP, and instead of doing so, they try to appease them.
Zeddicuszull
Yes, it says a lot that leftists don't actually care about adult government and base their ideas on politics via memes and vibing.
qwertdeep
You haven’t ever met a leftist, you think zoomers on TikTok’s are leftist
gingen
Every "meet us in the middle" situation puts things further into the far right's agenda, leaving scraps for the rest of us. If they had a spine it would help. That being said, we do have some folks in the dem party that ARE actually doing their job, and it's worth recognizing, but when the party itself is constantly shooting itself in the foot every single election, it's exhausting. At this point it's just perpetuating a broken system of pain and loss.
gingen
so you either rarely get a dem who actually does stand for their constituents, a dem who sits on their ass to make money because they discovered lobbying benefits them, or a dem that gets brain damage and becomes a far right piece of shit. It sucks!
gingen
Not to mention they keep circle jerking themselves for speaker and whatnot by overlooking people who are younger and more qualified, and instead choosing the most wrinkled and aged grandparent in the room that can't even figure out how to read a fuckin email. UGH!!!! OK this became a huge rant post. We all have a lot to be angry about. We gotta take the power back. We can't solely rely on a single political party to do that.
HonestCommentFarmer
People who vote for fascists do bear some responsibility, but the main people who are responsible for frogmarching us into it are the fascists who do it.
shehdbeuebw738373
Anyone who didn't vote full ticket blue is to blame, full fucking stop. Migrants and trans kids in slave labor camps aren't going want to listen to your dumb shit explanation.
GCRust
My biggest issue was I've watched the Democrats sweep Government in this country multiple times and each time have bent over backwards to appease Republican "opposition" they did not need to pass legislation.
We're looking at a full meltdown of the Federal Government by the ransacking of an unelected Oligarch, and suddenly Democrats are powerless because they don't have any sort of majority.
I'm not going to apologize for being pissed off about this.
KungofBees
Or maybe the dems are getting rightfully shit on for being dead wrong on the things voters saw everyday because they couldnt ever fathom views from outside the beltway that dared to question the validity of their flawed think tanks and data. Then they high-horsed everyone who dared question them! I still voted for her because fuck trump but cmon. They need a moment of clarity and a top down purge. https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2025/02/11/democrats-tricked-strong-economy-00203464
KAPTAINKAMIKAZEE
Had Bernie been the nominee in 2016, we'd have finished his second term by now.
CarpeMofo
I love data, I trust data. It might mislead you, but it doesn't lie, people just interpret it wrong. But even I was looking at the information about the microeconomy and knowing that the math ain't mathing.
Herefortheboos
It is the standard so it's hard to go against that since you need some basis for comparison, and your article is just one guy saying the standard has been wrong for decades. But yeah the message should have been "the economy is getting better, and now we're working on the ways you'll actually feel the difference." Instead of trying to gaslight people. Pelosi and Schumer have to go too. And agreed fuck trump.
jmneglia
Two things can be true at once: the typical poll response about the economy during the Biden years was often "myself and my local economy are doing better...but the nation's economy is falling apart!", hence the "egg price" voters. At the same time, the *macro* issues of the economy, the big ticket items like housing, education, et. al., remain in a crisis of runaway costs, and Dems certainly didn't tailor a strong enough message about that.
KungofBees
The "egg price" meme is rightfully seen as a jab at lower income voters who had massive concerns of their costs of living spiking and instead of being heard they were ridiculed. It's elitist condescending neo lib bullshit. These were votes that could easily have been swayed.
zFUBARz
They are votes that were easily swayed. By lies and bullshit
jmneglia
Not particularly: a large amount of the "egg voters" were economically well off, but took any rise in prices as proof Biden was doing something-something to them.
Youhavinagiraffe
Scrolls down to comments "here's why this situation is actually all Democrats fault and they suck" -> instant million upvotes and nobody learns a fucking thing
AFelineMassofEyes
netutoring
Are you kidding? There's tons of cheerleaders here who never offer even constructive criticism of the Dems. I voted straight ticket blue. I said I thought her campaign was awful, and laid out reasons. I didn't watch any news outlets, and was not influenced. I have degrees in history and politics. I was downvoted. Dems need constructive feedback, not cheerleading. Because clearly what they are doing is not working.
netutoring
Happening already. Grow a thicker skin. You don't improve by repeating the same strategy.
Youhavinagiraffe
Not. a. single. fucking. thing.
PlanckEraWasMyBestEra
I get it and to some extent I agree, but I do think that leftist/liberal tendency to criticize does cause many of the people who don't like to pay attention to hear "Dems suck" from left, right, AND center, whereas they only hear "Reps suck" from *some* people. Therefore, it's only logical that if everyone hates Dems and only some people hate Reps, that Reps are better, so they vote for them.
It's not a matter of blind praise, but of changing minds. Criticize when the alternative isn't Fascism
AsheLake
Pretending they don't suck won't fix anything. They do suck. They just suck way less than the actual fascists.
"Criticize when the alternative isn't Fascism." When in history is this? Must we always settle for the lesser of two evils and never complain? When Democrats fail to defend us from fascists, it is only right for us to question why they are our only defense and discuss how to be better.
You and @Youhavinagiraffe seem to want us to just line up and happily lick a cleaner boot.
netutoring
The criticism is intended to hopefully get the party moving in a direction that puts them in a better position. If we rubber stamp our side's actions, nobody's mind is going to change.
rex314
Yeah, the comments on this post are I think the first time in the last ~8-10 years I can remember seeing any criticism of Democrats on Imgur without it being downvoted to hell. The rhetoric nowadays seems to usually be "All Dems are 100% perfect and all Reps are 100% evil, it's useless to ever talk to/listen to Reps, and they're all nazis anyway, and it's okay to punch nazis". Most of what I hear from US politics is from the Imgur fronpage, and even so, for many years now it's been abundantly ->
rex314
clear that the Imgur frontpage is just a stream of Democrat propaganda (and anyone who disagrees with that very obviously does not know the definition of propaganda) - and to be clear, I dislike Trump as much as the next person, but that doesn't mean I enjoy seeing everyone with even slightly different opinion on anything ostracized, or facts twisted to look worse for the other side, or blatant misinformation. Imgur will happily upvote anything that looks bad for Reps even if they know its false
notblat
"Even slightly different opinion ostracized" - sorry but if they support the guy with a room temperature IQ, terrorizing minorities, dismantling the government, etc. - then they deserve to be ostracized. It doesn't matter if their viewpoint on a specific topic is almost-reasonable. If you let them in, if you give them an inch, then you give them the opportunity to spread their vitriol outright or even more dangerously, with subterfuge. We should not tolerate the intolerant.
notblat
netutoring
It's a self-fulfilling prophecy.
notblat
And fyi, "I dislike Trump as much as the next person", is a huge red flag that you do not dislike Trump as much as the next person. This is a binary, you either believe him to be a dangerous sociopathic imbecile, or you're okay with what he's doing.
rex314
This is exactly the kind of thing that I mean by "ostracize". For context: I live in a country that borders Russia. Trump just essentially said Ukraine should just give the land to Russia and forget about any help from USA like a few days ago. My county is basically next on the list for Russia. You think I *like* Trump? What I heard you say was "You didn't use hateful enough language to my taste to refer to Trump, so you probably support Trump. And all Trump supporters deserve to be ostracized."
levyathyn
Current Democrats are passive, backseat neo-liberals, staunch proponents of the Capitalist ideology above almost anything else, and at the top level they don't really stand for anything. Now, individually speaking, our elected Dems are about like our voting Dems... there's a wealth of them, a ton, and many many, many of them are good people, trying to do good. But the main goal of the party at large seems these days to be keeping pro-active Democrats out to make positive changes from doing so.
PoliticalWanderer
Now being referred to as Murc's law.
Tumescentpie
Well yeah, but why is it this way?
Because the dems fucking deserve it.
ThatMangoAteMyBabyy
You left one out. If the Dems get something done that the Reps fought against, the Reps take credit for it …
ThomKlanc
"See what can happen when we work in a bipartisan manner?"
LordofGoats
"But you voted against it..."
"SEE WHAT CAN HAPPEN WHEN WE WORK IN A BIPARTISAN MANNER?!"
FlyingButtPliers
This is a bit backwards. Who did it decides if it was good or bad from what I've seen.
FaithAlone
Under Yes for Was it good? It should read “fuck you it wasn’t good, it was commie socialist reverse racialism that kills grandmas!”
BananaForScaIe
(and eats babies, and uses their genital juices as sauces)
datCookieGuy
Summarised Republican playbook right there
n0n53n53
It's not just Republicans who think this way
BananaForScaIe
I think the point is we're all complicit, including media.
lizardbones
i agree with the outcome, but saying that the dems seldom make bad decisions isnt exactly right. i think they make bad decisions all the time, but those decisions are outweighed by the good ones. And politics is not an all or nothing game, you have to vote for the better option whether you agree with all their policies or not, and there has never been a single situation I can think of where the dems did something wrong that the Republicans werent actively going to do worse.
GloriousPirateBeard
Starts off shitting on dems, then transitions into minimal praise. The exact thing the post was about
lizardbones
i fail to see how "dems make a lot of bvad decisions but are still better than republicans in every way" is "shitting on the dems"
qwertdeep
You pissed off the blue maga because you were realistic about what the dems do. They’re the lesser of two evils for a reason, but these people want you to say that their shit smells like roses. Any criticism of the dems is chasing ideological purity to these goblins
Zeddicuszull
You're still falling for the assumption that only Democrats have agency. You're a victim of propaganda.
lizardbones
which part of my comment gives that impression? i never said it was the dems fault that the republicans suck. However, when republicans fuck everything up we have to vote for the dems to fix it because they're literally the only other option.. the republicans are absolutely to blame for all the shit they do, and they should face consequences. but they arent exactly going to send themselves to prison, now are they?
GloriousPirateBeard
It's because you could not just praise dems, you had to hedge it with 'they do bad things too'. Saying they do bad things but are better than republicans is a backhanded compliment at best, not praise
Richter12x2
I think it's valid to say "It's not that they're perfect, but they're definitely trying"
lizardbones
My point was neither praise nor disparagement. I was simply pointing out that while the diagram is true for the sentiment and outcome of the dems getting shit on by both sides of the US political spectrum the specific comment "they seldom make bad decisions" was inaccurate in my opinion. Of course i would always vote for the dems over the republicans, however its important we call out bad decisions while still voting for the person who gets us closer to what we want, otherwise the bad continues
Porfirij
as someone from "the left": i'd LOVE to be able to praise the dems for good policy. i can also unequivocally state that they are by far the lesser of two evils. HOWEVER, today's establishment democrats are - by historical and international standards - ostensibly a conservative party. not as extreme as the GQP ofc, but still. that said, their corporate owned leadership does not promote leftist policies, they rather try to appeal to the right and lobbyists on major issues. so spare me the tears...
JohnWickdidnothingwrong
As a "Left", I'd love to support the dems across the board, but they blew the election and, not unrelated, they won't stop sucking Israels dick no matter what atrocities they commit. You want accolades, be accoladable.
Zeddicuszull
Democrats earned your vote several times over during the Biden Administration. You just weren't paying attention.
JohnWickdidnothingwrong
Lol
Zeddicuszull
See? You weren't paying attention.
Porfirij
that is EXACTLY the kind of entitlement that made them fail so miserably. just being the better of two BAD options did not excite enough people to care. i still would have voted for harris to prevent outright fascism, but dems trying to appeal to right wingers while arrogantly assuming everyone left of that will have to support them anyway, was a massive miscalculation, and it backfired horribly. they could learn from it but they won't - their corporate owners would never allow that.
Zeddicuszull
This is exactly why conservatives will keep winning. Leftists refusing to acknowledge when Democrats do good and pass great legislation into law. You are actively helping the right when you behave like this.
Porfirij
could you give me examples of that "great legislation" which should have secured the "leftist" vote, outweighing the dems active support for a genocide, their conservative border policy, their failure to protect women's rights by legislation, their failure to deliver decent wages and worker protections, their dismissal of progressive ideas, and their reluctance to get special interest out of politics, just to name a few? what have dems actually delivered that should make people excited to vote?
[deleted]
[deleted]
Zeddicuszull
Here's five:
https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/hou/3684">https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congrse-bi">/3684">https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-con">ess/h">se-bi">/3684">https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-bill/3684
https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-bill/4346
https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-bill/3967
https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-bill/1319
StSob
This may be unfair to Dems, but ultimately its their job as politicians to publicly promote their effectiveness. You cant do good deeds in silence, thats not how it works. If you cant explain the people why they should vote for you, you're probably not going to win the election.
AranaDiscoteca
This is the equivalent advice of "Have you tried being friends with the mean girls so they don't bully you?"
Slashenaar
The bad man won, then again, they failed repeatedly and have failed to admit it and failed to admit they need a change. They're sinking and part of the problem
LootenetDan
It's hard to promote things publicly when media outlets are owned by your rivals
IconicM
It's a group effort though. Democrats are often quiet about their accomplishments except when actively campaigning, but I almost never see anything posirive said about Democrats even from people on social media. Based on Imgur for instance the entire campaign seemed to be based on proving how bad Trump will be, and wanting to kill the rich, with no mention of Democrats' accomplishments.
StellarJay77
They are absolutely not quiet about their achievements. It's the amplifying platforms that don't cover them that are the issue. The media are all exponentially louder than anything the Democrats can come up with and promoting positive, feel-good stories makes zero money. Controversy drives engagement which makes money. It's the for-profit media that are the root issue here, not the Democrats.
schananagans
Let’s be clear, shouting accomplishments at the top of any rooftop falls on def ears because people don’t even want to hear said accomplishments. Saying words out loud will not work because you all aren’t even recognizing when it does happen. You all don’t care about the accomplishments because it doesn’t give you the thrills that bad news gives your pleasure center in those noodles of yours.
SayRamrod
counterpoint: right wing media is currently updating decade old immigrant removal articles because no one checks and will assume trump is delivering. "500 illegals removed...... by obama in 2010"
so at least in some ways, it definitely helps yelling wins from the rooftops when your audience doesnt think too hard.
and at risk of beating a dead horse, getting promoted in a tech job is 100% related to emphasizing wins even if fluffed.
eCheeseRunner
Like totally f*** the Dems, ammiright? Or maybe we can’t stop complaining about them having a communication problem and realizes all media is stacked against them and instead violently support the good they are trying to do.
littlejsilver
I’ve noticed they’re not as willing to lie and create inflammation with their constituents as Republicans are. Less passion = less action.
BishlamekGurpgork
I feel like you would see the same result if you had a passion for improving the country while your opponent had equal passion for power and self-aggrandizement.
littlejsilver
It’s slowly tipping that way, I hope. I’m abhorred and furious and screaming over here, but not everyone has empathy. Until those people are personally affected, they won’t squawk on someone else’s behalf. It’s pathetic.
BishlamekGurpgork
I'm not sure it's as simple as not having empathy. They didn't really have a grasp on the truth, so when they're told that he cares about the people, nothing else penetrates that. They're essentially in a cult, and their supreme leader is telling them that he loves the people very much.
sithrakhatesyouequally
yes but look who owns the information landscape...NOT people identifying as democrats in general.
gesel
Nah, this is exactly the bottom right case perfectly encapsulated. And it is complete bullshit actively promoted by every fascist strategic messaging organization as stridently as possible.
Reality: the Dems did tons of great things under Biden, they were widely reported and easily accessible. Social media is a munition, not a source of valid information, people who rely on it believe such idiotic things as the economy was bad for "regular people" or that Kamala/Biden didn't support 2 state.
darthnerdus6236
It's really difficult to convey the complexities at a level everyone will understand. That's why Conservatives tear things apart and use a three or four word slogan while they do it. It's always a lot easier to be critical than constructive.
SansAandAnguS
That would be fair enough if it was a level playing field. But the left is constantly battling misinformation, outright lies and disinformation, all while trying to get stuff done (i.e. theiractual job), while being surrounded by a hostile opposition that will literally stop at nothing to stifle and undermine everything they say or do. Once again, it's put on the left to find solutions and explain everything, while all the right has to do is criticise and stir up anger. It's unfair.
chiefrunswithscissors
Trouble is all the other side has to do is lie and most people won't fact check it. "50% of all immigrants are murderers" "wow that is pretty fucked up. I should vote for the guy who wants to get rid of all the murderers"
(not a direct quote but I remember him saying something very similar to this)
zFUBARz
Literally standing next to a lady in a line today who said it was pretty crazy they had Serena Williams a prominent transgender athlete on stage at the Superbowl halftime show. She's been a fixture of tennis and women's accomplishments for like 20 years and all it took was one like for this random lady to fall prey to it.
ConsiderateEdgelord
As long as Fox News exists to poison their minds, no headway can be made.
Lies upon lies eventually take the place of facts.
stryhf
It's not just Fox.
All of BigTech, on bended knee, kissed the ring at the coron^H^H^H^H^Hinauguration.
Numerous news organizations have been capitulating by settling on frivolous lawsuits drawn up by the administration
Organizations not complying with the "language" like the AP are being denied access.
deflectiveone
if you're on the internet and you find a post that says that everyone is scoring social points by shitting on the democrats and it's destroying the political landscape allowing fascism to flourish...
then shit on the democrats to show how clever you are and score internet points
Zeddicuszull
Huh? The OP post was positive about Democrats.
Leithoa
The dems fail because at the national level they have no spine. "Joe's too old!" - runs Harris. "What about Gaza?" - promises to give Israel aid while gently pressuring them to not genocide. "We need swing voters!" - tours with Liz fucking Cheny. The GQP have the right locked in. The dems refuse to have a coherent party. They're the center-right- business-focused-rainbow-capitalist-progressive-when-it's-convenient party. And that is why they fail. They don't have a base.
encrypteddecryption
This. Dems are generally more educated, more egalitarian, and tend to run things better when given the chance, but they are a hydra-headed coalition of special interests, each eyeing each other with a mix of hope and suspicion. These divisions and lack of cohesive messaging are easily exploited because outer ring Dems are unwilling to cave on their special issues to secure the center.
StellarJay77
When you have a large chunk of the public discourse (social media, mainstream media, etc) actively working against being able to promote any positive outcomes or spinning everything as being bad, that makes doing that very difficult and people need to pay very careful attention to be able to see the positives. Most people are not encouraged to think critically about the information they are receiving and who stands to benefit if that information is untruthful or inaccurate.
CPTBRUMBL3Z
Yep, they don't advertise their accomplishments except to those that already know about those accomplishments or already are more or less pro-Dem outlets. They need to sign their names on shit, they need to show the American people what they've done and accomplished. The biggest reason Fox "News" (and the "independent" media that just gets in line behind their bullshit) controls the narrative is because Dems don't fight for control, themselves.
StellarJay77
This is so fucking infuriating that people haven't figured this out yet. For-profit media is 100% to blame for all of this, not the Democrats and their messaging. Positive, feel-good stories make zero money. Manufacturing controversy does and media companies have learned they will not be meaningfully held to account for not telling the truth. So they either spin controversy or they fade into obscurity as the truth cannot compete with the reporting of 'train wrecks'.
CPTBRUMBL3Z
They're called "political advertisements and commercials." While the Dems obviously need to do a shit ton better at communicating and being featured on those "We're journalists except where our corporate masters risk losing profit" news stations and papers, they should be making election style ads ALL FUCKING YEAR to advertise their accomplishments (and everything the Republicans then block or try removing). 24 fucking 7 needs to be the minimum. Also, they need to stop being on defense 24/7.
StellarJay77
Do you realize how pissed off people will be seeing Democrats political ads everywhere? When was it last that you saw a political promo ad promoting positive changes that anyone paid any mind to whatsoever? The reason Republican promotion works is because they drive fear, hatred, and controversy and are all about tearing down the "enemy". The for profit media doesn't inherently care at all about positive uncontroversial stories.
CPTBRUMBL3Z
The reason Republican messaging works is it is chronically without pushback. Either Dems need to advertise their accomplishments and stop playing defensive or we will always have this shit like it is.
pritolus
This though. The Harris/Walz campaign had a massive PR budget but weren't able to effectively communicate their stance on anything beyond "orange man bad."
While a lot of Trump voters are hardened shitfucks, there's a significant number of uninformed people who are struggling. Trump promised more jobs, housing, and cheaper groceries. He absolutely won't deliver, but uninformed people don't know that. Did Kamala promise similar things those people care about? Who the fuck knows.
StellarJay77
This is 100% the fault of for-profit media, not the Democrats or Harris/Walz.
StellarJay77
Everything Trump said about what he would deliver was attached with, at the very least, the implication (but more often than not an overt accusal) that the Democrats were the reason they didn't have any of those things. People weren't paying attention to what he was saying he would do that was positive, they were on board with him removing those who he was saying are preventing those positive things from happening.
Tumescentpie
Nixon said the worst thing a politician can be, was boring. He said this during reagans presidency.
The gop took this to heart. That's why "please clap" never got to be president but "build a wall" did.
The dems are mostly boring and when they aren't it is usually because they are doing something very stupid like sinema's thumbs down.
giganticroboticpenguin
14 months before the election I told a bunch of Dem acquaintances that Harris should have been on a promo tour to increase her visibility and likeability. I was told to shut up, men didn't need to do that, so why should a woman. They apparently forgot that 2% of the electorate didn't vote in Dem in the 2016 election because She was a woman *AND* a Clinton. 700,000 people not voting in 2024 got us where we are because of Dems shitty messaging.
BigDaddysMeatWagon
This is EXACTLY the problem. Yes they should win, but damn they need to be effective and get visible results. While the R's have been doing evil shit, they've been doing a LOT of evil shit very publicly.
AtmaDarkwolf
Honestly? the Dems need more teeth. They need to listen to what is happening around them and respond in kind. Examples are many, but just as one, the press conf./photo op with Chuck Schumer standing at the podium attempting to 'chant' but switching it up mid way. WEAK. Never willing to HIT the fucking Repugnicans where it HURTS And using the truth. CALL OUT THE PEDO'S, CALL OUT THE RAPISTS, OVER AN D OVER, LAY OUT all the shit they have done and repeat it so often it CANNOT be ignored. FITE BACK
Tumescentpie
They can't get more teeth. They are too far to the center to have teeth. The left and the right have teeth
America removed the leftists from the left long before I was born. There are not enough leftists to fill the superbowl stadium .
PlanckEraWasMyBestEra
Exactly. I agree that there is some unfair bias toward Dems. Very much that idea of how they lose voters for doing a single thing wrong where Reps will side with a letter regardless, and that's only a problem because the reps vote together consistently.
BUT, part of the criticism of the left is that the Dems *don't* represent us or our beliefs. Almost all of them are center at best because the Overton window has shifted so far, so they represent a small group of moderates. That is why they
PlanckEraWasMyBestEra
earn our criticism: they refuse to represent us and they deserve it.
Now, again, the fact that it means we won't stand nearly as united as the Republicans absolutely does contribute to how we got here. And also they refuse to represent our issues and deserve our criticism. Both are true imo
todayistheworstdayofmylife
They did and I watched and read articles of them doing so. The bigger problem is our media doesn't promote good stories and/or are afraid of doing so for democrats.
Perkunas687
National media believed reporting accurately on Repubs would be assisting Dems, and reporting accurately on Dems would be assisting Dems, so the solution they decided on was to report accurately about neither, which ended up assisting Repubs and hurting Dems. And if national media wasn't going to report something, odds were good local media wouldn't either, "if it was important more people would be talking about it." Repubs worked the refs for decades and it keeps paying off.
mrthewhitee
They didn't, though. You can't show up for 2 months every 4 years and pretend you did your job, but even during the election, they did a shit job of selling themselves because they consistently undermined every popular policy they introduced with some right wing gesture.
IconicM
Did they though? I didn't know Biden got inflation under 3% until a few days after the election, and then it was people posting it in anticipation of it going up under Trump. Meanwhile Republicans will go on Twitter claiming they passed legislation they actually voted against.
todayistheworstdayofmylife
They did yes. I am a news junkie, he said it in speeches, othercdems said it, and it was tracked regularly in the financial markets because of the anticipated rate cuts. Everywhere! But not as amplified as lies and bad news
zFUBARz
"But GAZA", they yelled as trump drove a bulldozer through the strip himself to build a new hotel.
DustBunny99
Mate I'm not even American and I knew that and I saw Biden and Harris and Dems try and get it out there and was amazed from 10k miles away how no one would talk about it
StSob
That isnt an unsolvable problem tho. They can always make their own online media or use social media to promote their stuff. This isnt the ultimate answer, and it might be ineffective in reaching a broader audience, but at least this way they could communicate with people who are already leaning to their side.
zFUBARz
Dude social media is literally promoting fascism and blocking positive news and information about progressive policies and acts.damn near every single major new media mogul was on stage with trump a couple weeks back. And Murdoch and his ilk have been on the same side from the get go.
StSob
Im not saying this is not a problem and its no wonder they might have trouble reaching new audience when the media giants are against them. But the point in OP is that Dems are kinda disliked even by their own base. And you dont really need mainstream media or the algorithm to connect with people who already support you. Especially when you're a legal political party with structure, funds, volunteers and all other stuff.
zFUBARz
Yes you do though. How much of the population do you think actually seeks out and looks for policy plans, statistical data of efficacy, etc? It's a shockingly low amount that would be surprising if not for the state of the world right now that makes it obvious almost nobody does. So people are much more likely to see the feed on their phone, social media, Cable news, and such.
LoudBirb
They did and still do that. Every single one of them.
Shaodyn
The owners of most media outlets are right-wing, so they're obviously not going to say anything good about Democrats.
HypersonicHero
The voters will do quite literally anything except blame themselves.
The right might be a cult but they are a cult that consistently brings in members because they believe in themselves. Democrats don't believe in themselves. They believe in their ideals but they resent their party.
StellarJay77
Not exactly. Fear and hate can be unified to dismantle and destroy exponentially more easily than finding a method to fix/build something that addresses an issue that everyone can agree on. There are so many ways to hate and attack something that ends up with the same result. The same cannot be said for creating or repairing things.
HypersonicHero
People say that but I would contend of that were true we would find humanity reaching towards decay and entropy, when the entirety of history trends the opposite.
StellarJay77
No the entirety of history has been a cycle of destruction, rebuilding, creation, stagnation, decline, and destruction again. Humans are driven by motivators rooted in our negativity biases. Paying attention to things that might harm us more than things that make us feel safe and content. Take the Roman Empire as a perfect example.
HypersonicHero
I find that anyone who automatically jumps to the Roman empire for any serious discussion is under informed.
StellarJay77
America is at the tail end of the stagnation phase. These things generally follow a cycle of 2-3 generations per phase. I can think of a few examples of points in history where the decline and/or destruction phase is averted/skipped but it takes a ton of work and stubborn determination that I'm not sure North America has the political willpower to accomplish.
StellarJay77
Here's my main comment that speaks to my point about how easily hate is weaponized and unifying. /gallery/rnlZHow/comment/2443668943
tallyhoho
They absolutely have a communication issue which has been a problem for decades. It's their own hubris they can't get away from
Arkandos
They have no connection to the people, no grassroots movement. It's an entirely topdown organisation.
So no surprise people aren't pleased.
CedricDur
Someone get them the Park and Wendy's media person/team. Those two in particular are devastating when they open their mouth.
Herefortheboos
The media doesn't help. Before the election I witnessed so much sane-washing of trump and so much demand for nothing else but absolute perfection from kamala (and all democrats)
UprootedGrunt
This, so much. Everything Trump did was "oh, he's so quirky", but everything Kamala did was "how DARE she do something like this?"
dorpjorp
The owners of the major media companies are all right wing cucks. Their reporting style is a mandate.
StellarJay77
I don't think it's even active malicious intent either though, it's simply that controversy drives engagement and that is what makes media companies their money. They make next to nothing to promote positive, feel-good stories, no one cares about those or will read/watch them and say "Oh that's nice" and move on. For-profit media is the root issue here and there's an inherent interest in manufacturing as much controversy as possible to keep eyeballs glued to the content.
Deadflower394857
Dems literally fund extremists like trump so they can attempt to coerce people into voting for them. Yes, they literally bankrolled Trump's first campaign as well as other extremists.
Zeddicuszull
Which works in some cases, so your argument is moot.
Deadflower394857
LMAO. On one hand, stupidity is upsetting. On the other hand, sometimes it's good for a laugh. So thanks
Zeddicuszull
See, you don't pay attention, thus proving OPs point. Good job!
Yes, politics does mean you can do everything right and still lose. That's life, biatch.
qwertdeep
It definitely worked the first time Trump got elected and the second time Trump got elected… the 2020 election is the only one where they dropped that tactic
Deadflower394857
This is what they do instead of pursuing policies that people actually want, by the way. This is how they get votes while serving the oligarchs.
Zeddicuszull
Democrats also pass legislation and create laws. You're just too busy being an idiot to notice.
Zeddicuszull
They can do both at the same time. Don't be a simpleton.
RowanUnderwood
The Democrats, with barely any exception have always been absolutely awful. The Pug Lycans on the other hand have been truly evil since the southern strategy. It is still the correct decision to take awful over evil. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_strategy#:~:text=The%20perception%20that%20the%20Republican,the%20South%20in%20later%20years.
Zahnradfee
Pug Lycans? Are those... werepugs?
RowanUnderwood
I came up with RE: Pug Lycans as a title for this song and have been trying to get it to stick ever since: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/_oZoUHN3K7Y
Zahnradfee
I don't know. Pugs are ugly, yes, but it's not their fault. Republicans, on the other side, are ugly out of their own volition.
GWJYonder
^^ Thought it would be helpful to give you an example of what OP is saying. It's practically a physiological need to bash the Dems.
RowanUnderwood
They are awful though? Obama's best was to pass Mitt Romney's BS "healthcare" and continue Bush's endless war. I think you'd have to go clear back to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franklin_D._Roosevelt for a truly transformative democrat. That said, I have never failed to vote for the Democrat :D
ThingsThatDontJustifyGenocide
the DNC is right-wing and wants the party to be right-wing, and pushes a right-wing agenda.
"the democrats" refers to the corporate-bootlicking dems and their ilk. "Progressives" get praised and treated as seperate... because they are.
shehdbeuebw738373
But we hold double standards. Dems have to hold the "correct" view, and win elections, and win policy battle on said issue, AND communicate the victory flawlessly. Even then, they don't get praise for ALL THAT, just criticism is a BIT less prevalent.
Progressives just have to hold the correct view. They lose fucking constantly, but that's always someone else's fault.
ThingsThatDontJustifyGenocide
Do progressives lose? xD I mean, aside from when they criticize genocide and AIPAC throws millions to beating them and the DNC does nothing to help the progressives because it hates progressives.
shehdbeuebw738373
Democrats - facing insurrection and voter suppression and don't win = fucking losers
Progressives - Lose constantly = omG sO uNfAiR!! whY iSnY aNyOnE HELPING tHeM!!!111
ICountFrom0
If we had a left party, it might get praised. But a center right party pretending to be the left, is never going to do a good enough job to get praise from the left.
crookednixon
Ok, but could they at least acknowledge that the Democrats are the preferable choice and not crap all over them?
hellodeliciousfriend
The Democrats are a coalition that includes center right liberals and leftists. The US doesn't have ideological parties and the left's failure to understand this is a big part of how we got here. I too would like the Democrats to be leftist but the country is just too far right for a pure leftist party to take power. You have to celebrate the victories you get and the left just never does that because the left in this country is fucking terrible at messaging.
cronkey
You need more parties.
Altanese
Cool, how?
Thorketil
The electoral law in the USA prevents a multi-party system. As long as the 'winner takes all' principle applies, there can only be two parties, because every smaller party next to the big ones inevitably dies out. The USA urgently needs to change its electoral law, or should have done so a long time ago.
PirateRubberDuck
The only way to keep left leaning politicians left leaning is to regularly criticise them. You can't let them think that they have the power to get away with things.
bbueller
did you not.....read the post....
TheDefective
We need a Labor Party, and Unions.
qwertdeep
There’s a centre right party in USA? All I’ve seen is right and far right
keillrandor
They're not pretending to be left, it's that people want/need it to be left, in order for the far right to have a true 'enemy/opponent'.
shehdbeuebw738373
But people in the US aren't left (mostly). And leftists AND liberals refuse to hold their nose and be excited if they're not in love.
Meanwhile a Republican married to an Indian will vote for people who joke about the white house smelling like curry of Trump/Vance win.
keillrandor
When the right dominates the narrative, of course no-one wants to be 'leftist', because they have no real idea of what it actually is, because everything left of right-wing is seen to be 'extremist'. Becoming a fascist state was pretty much inevitable at some point for the US given it's history and such propaganda - it's just Trump+Putin (mainly thanks in reaction to Obama) got there a lot faster than expected.
shehdbeuebw738373
Sure, but consistently outlining the differences between Dems and Repubs and zealously voting for them, we would not be in this situation.
So I'm not sure what we think we've gained by shitting on them constantly.
keillrandor
Again, that's the right dominating the media and context for any discussion - something that's only increased over time. Everyone in the US should understand the power of propaganda, and yet...
keillrandor
Of course, the fact that the ENTIRE US government has also been LEGALLY bought by anyone and everyone who can afford it, (usually selfish rich people/corps that inherently lean right, again), is also the whole point.
keillrandor
Do you even realise just how much the US has been truly propgandized by the right (now far right) for the past 50 years? Demonizing anything and everything that's not right/far-right is the whole point. Making people think that centrist positions are extremist far left, is the whole point.
CarpeMofo
It's not great, but it's what we have. We need it to succeed, we just need to mostly praise it while pushing it left tiny bits further at a time. But either way, we need to be hugely supportive even if they do suck. Like a Buffalo Bills fan.
KPodol
The problem is they don't want to go left, they are capitalists, by nature they are a right wing party. What you guys need is a true left wing option that comes in as an opposition to the current political parties. If people like Sanders/AOC decided to form an independant party, that would be the best for the US, but i don't think they are ready to take the risk of their career to try and improve things despite being shafted by the democratic party constantly.
PlanckEraWasMyBestEra
I think Bernie and AOC both would absolutely go independent if they could win, but they wouldn't win in our current political landscape and therefore they can get more done as Dems.
It's not selfishness. It's the difference between getting *something* done under a banner that doesn't fit and not getting *anything* done under the banner that does.
netutoring
As a looooooooooong-term Patriots fan (going back to the late '80s), this made me laugh a little too hard.
CBadger
The problem is we keep trying to push it left and it just slides right every single year. It's not an effective option in its current state. Maybe once a bunch of old people die? ...if we havent had a fascist coup by then.
zFUBARz
Brother it's already happening.
StellarJay77
Well the right (both Republicans and Democrats) have created a system that favours conservative minded individuals and actively pushes back against progressive policy making. The cards are stacked against any left leaning politician and it's up to the voters to stubbornly and aggressively support them no matter what. It's going to take decades and at least a few generations to beat the Overton window back more to the left.
keillrandor
The problem with the US, (and other places) is that the left/far left has already been effectively destroyed by the right over 50yrs.
Arbitrarynamehere
And liberals are stomping out the ashes of the left to this day.
hyperchondriac
Left candidates do not receive funding from corporations. Capable leftist candidates garner funding for their opponents. Citizens United and the Roberts court fucked us.
AsheLake
Democrats and Republicans work together to crush leftists, even within the Democratic party. Leftists who vote Democrat do so because D's are the only viable alternative to fascists, and stopping fascists is a higher priority than signalling our existence with a vote that we all know will go nowhere.
The Democratic party has not advanced any leftist political values in several generations. They represent the interests of their wealthy donors, not the working class.
whereismymind86
Only in politics, the left is a very large constituency, they just don’t have power, similarly to non religious folks (that Venn diagram is kind of a circle mind you). I vote blue, but I will always try to pull the dems left, and will jump ship the second we have an actual viable progressive alternative
keillrandor
Yes - but politics (and media/propaganda effects) is what we're talking about here. We all know that if the US actually understood right vs left PROPERLY, then it'd be similar to a lot of other nations, but it's not BEEN ALLOWED TO, and this has since affected other countries, too...
pandemicmodedad
It all started when they right convinced the population that socialism is bad.
keillrandor
The Red scare was a large part of it, sure, but the selfish rich have always been pushing things this way, regardless. Having Putin's support has been able to make things possible that weren't as simple before, though. Like Brexit & Trump.
ThingsThatDontJustifyGenocide
The problem with the US is that the left-party leap frogged to the right and the right-party just shrugged their shoulders and stayed right where they were. It's why the dems suck. They're still the right-wing party. The republicans are crazyballs racist nazi fuckbags, and the democrats are the right-wing party and ALWAYS HAVE BEEN.
ALWAYS. They're less racist now, but it's always been a right-wing party.
jmneglia
Not really how the left/right divide has worked; the GOP has always been insanely pro capital over labor, even when it was much more progressive on racial issues in the 19th century. The base of the old Dem party was racist whites, but they were typically the more pro (usually white) labor party. The modern Democratic party is pretty much centrist, though further left than during my childhood in the 90s.
keillrandor
The left/far left was destroyed politically during the 60's and not just in the US.
zFUBARz
Although often by agents and influence of the US in other nations too.
keillrandor
There's a reason for why ALL sides have supported authoritarian propganda during the 20th Century, regardless of what the US especially may say about 'democracy'.
keillrandor
If you haven't noticed that the far left parties worldwide in civilized countries have moved to the center, you're not paying much attention. The past 70 years has been about the far right/right DEFINING the context for EVERYTHING else, and destroying the left as much as possible. The US is merely no exception. This is why Putin's support of the far right has also been so damaging.
qwertdeep
“In civilised countries” a fucking patronising way of saying western liberal democracies where the media is owned by corporations.
qwertdeep
Civilised countries don’t have school shot up every week. Civilised countries don’t put migrants in cages. Civilised countries don’t aren’t built on white supremacy and systemic racism. Civilised countries don’t kill millions via their colonisation. Civilised countries don’t assassinate leaders of foreign countries. Civilised countries don’t support genocides, nor do they commit their own. Civilised countries don’t extract wealth from other countries. I’m not just talking about USA here.