LordoftheHildago
130426
2050
40
Jun 20, 2022 2:20 PM
LordoftheHildago
130426
2050
40
100percentthatbtch
By monopolize u mean monetize
Hambonerhandy
Oh won't somebody think of the poor capitalists?
Idownvotegunnuts
Big difference between educating yourself reading a paper from one of the best engineering schools in the world & being angry over a tweet.
jzatarski
angry twitter people aside this is a real issue. production needs to match consumption and solar doesn't handle that. storage is inefficient
jzatarski
simplified due to character limits. not writing an imgur essay. source: am EE, understand basics of power grid.
Justchillindylan
Things will always be ruined/ created because of greed
TheRiattAct
Yet
ShamalamaDingDing
Why can’t we apply logic and technology where there is no need of capitalism. I feel like it would be really easy to achieve a society (1)
ShamalamaDingDing
like that of StarTrek where people just do what they love without the constantly just trying to survive from day to day. (2)
LongtimeLurkerFirsTimePoster
Finally figured out why GOP has such a hard on for petro: anything liberals are for is bad. Even if it benefits them.
confanity
Peak production at a time when demand isn't necessarily at a peak *can* be a problem. Focusing on "negative pricing," though....
DoorTable
Specifically chosen to just get an instinctual response of negative=bad before you think about it. Eliminate negativity!
HeywouldJablowme
Of course we can! Where there's a will there's a way! Now get out there and innovate capitalists!
MarkusAwesomesauce
They can't monopolize the sun, but they can damn sure monopolize solar panels.
LaffertyDanie1
But you can monopolize parts, construction and farms. Utilities and ipps pretty much already do, rooftop solar is small potatoes.
fennecbutt
Lmao extra power is bad for the grid you nuts.
ConLawHero
That person missed the point and looks dumb. It was about excess energy at certain times, necessitating storage.
stsword
'Driving down prices" makes it damn clear what the real point of the comment was.
JeremyPeevin
It's a little more complicated than just that. Storage is a problem. The review of the article makes it seem like it's JUST greed.
SirenBrick
Profitable storage is a problem, moderate cost, moderate maintenance small scale storage in mass, is a solution.
TheRustySheriff
Mr Burns had an answer for this in an episode of The Simpsons
Ark161
was talking about this with wife. even in excess, it would offset the burning of fossil fuels regardless, so very much worth it.
alexx616
Yeah.... someone missed the point of the article there...
RetrogradeLlama
nickasaurusrex83
Dammit, beat me to it!
ontarioOT
"Since the beginning of time, man has yearned to destroy the sun."
irrelevant18
they said the quiet part loud
ArmedandOverclocked
this is actually a legit problem. Peak solar output and peak human consumption generally dont align. Thankfully a lot of potential 1/
ArmedandOverclocked
solutions are being engineered to capture the excess juice. I like the different water battery designs personally.
SirenBrick
So many cool ones, sand batteries, liquid metal heat batteries, water towers, hydro dams, siphon systems, reverse pressure wells, etc.
spaceminions
The PROBLEM is that non-solar sources need to be at maximum in the evening but zero at noon, and they are inherently slow to respond.
spaceminions
We *need* very good control over supply and demand to keep the AC grid from self-destructing.
spaceminions
The second issue is that solar panels take resources to build, and we don't have infinite panels so we should try to optimize.
RulesOfImgur
The reality is that most electricity from solar is produced in early afternoon but is needed most in evenings.
faultysage
The article is about how that excess energy is just lost when ideally we'd be able to store it for times outside peak energy production.
Masonrig
Eh, we are getting closer there with recent sulfur-sodium batteries, but they aren't commercially viable yet...and lithium-ion is a no.
cepacolusmaximus
If only there were some way to store energy until it was needed! Shoot. I guess we're just stuck with coal...
faultysage
Battery technology is actually the issue. It's not up to par.
OldSchoolNewRules
Use solar to pump water back up behind hydroelectric dams.
SirenBrick
We do, or push it up a tower, or though a hole to create siphon pressure, etc. Good return for little investment.
faultysage
But then that wouldn't get you any points on imgur now would it?
yeahhedugit
How dare you accuse people of pandering just for fake internet points.! (New Bigfoot spotting! Click this link bigfootahhh.com)
mistermixelpix
Actually it's about how it's hard to incentivize energy companies to develop solar because the profit margins drop so far.
deathandtaxes1
If they could monopolize solar power and make it so other forms of power generation weren’t allowed, we’d see stupid energy prices anyway.
HieronymousFlex
Which is exactly why the entire energy sector should be nationalized.
RogueFerret
Right. Energy is too important to the function of modern civilization to be left up to greed fueled private industry. Same with ISPs.
Axianamos
If only there were some law to prevent a single corporation from controlling an entire sector and forcing others out
Axianamos
Call it... mono. For single and uh... mono... monocontrol? Monoparrot? Monopansexual?
blaghart
Incorrect take. MIT is a government funded service, they're pointing out that regulating power draw with solar is difficult, which is true.
blaghart
I live in AZ, and we could fund all the power needs for the entire continent if we covered all our rooves, parking lots, and sidewalks in
blaghart
solar panel shades...but at the same time STORING all that power would be extremely difficult. It's why Nuclear is such a critical part of
blaghart
green power generation. Nuclear for the baseline, solar and wind for the surplus, with Hydro as a cheap battery medium. use the solar/wind
blaghart
surplus to power pumps to fill resevoirs, use hydro to turn those resevoirs into power on dark/windless days.
kingbudo101
I mean problem with solar is its limited by weather and energy storage tech. Which is why the current best system would be solar powering
qtRaven
Batteries. They work quite well on the ISS.
kingbudo101
homes and residential areas with a nuclear plant powering the critical infrastructure with the ability to increase output during emergencies
JaromirAzarov
It would be better to have gas turbine generators in standby for emergencies, because they're much faster to ramp up and you don't have /1
JaromirAzarov
to run the nuclear power plant on partial load, which is usually bad for the overall efficiency. /2
BeanTootsAreBest
All or nothing binary thinking won't get us anywhere.
kingbudo101
yeah. a lot of people dont get that
HappyLittleIdiot
Nuclear has (for safety reasons) limits on how fast output can in reality changed. Hydro is great, but not feasible in relatively flat areas
kingbudo101
correct on both accounts but also adding in national droughts, Hydro is becoming not feasible large parts of the country. Leaving
kingbudo101
nuclear one of the last energy sources that has a reliable steady output of energy
SlightlyRelatedToThePost
Nuclear can work in tandem with power storage as well, as you can slowly adjust output to meet demand while meeting spikes on battery.
YoSamiteSam
The problem is that hydroelectric could produce enough cheap clean energy but the way we organize our whole lives is based on money.
SaturnineCult
It also tends to fuck up river ecosystems, so you can't just dam every river in the world.
YoSamiteSam
If all land was public, then we could utilize as much hydroelectric as possible, and distribute it freely, and live together near waterways.
YoSamiteSam
Now we need to buy it from the people who own the land near the water and pay a guy to maintain a line to our property far away.
grisheem
The “duck curve” created by solar power is actually a big issue. Base load generation, provided by nuclear, is necessary to counteract this.
OldSchoolNewRules
Only capitalism can make free energy a problem
TheLegendaryBonk
Wasn’t Bill Gates recently talking about designing a massive system that could block out the sun for “environmental purposes”
RetrogradeLlama
That was Monty Burns.
TheLegendaryBonk
Ah-ha!
faultysage
Not sure about Bill Gates but scientists have floated ideas about how to reduce solar radiation hitting earth to help with global warming.
geoffreyfourmyle
Orbital solar shields and insolation reducers have been an idea in sci-fi since the 60's if not earlier. About time we built some.
geoffreyfourmyle
("insolation" is not a typo for "insulation")
malicart
There was a guy in Germany I believe who designed a system where solar pumped water down under a giant earth plug, raising it up with ...
leboepp
I think this the guy: Eduard Heindl (https://heindl-energy.com/)
Dontstopbelever2000ismyfavoritesoap
Seen a similar layout; plant pumped water up into a res with excess power at night which then flowed through turbines in the day
sumelar
That sounds kinda stupid when the tech to pump water up and let it flow down is a million times easier.
Nightbringar755
The tech is easier but finding workable locations for that has apparently been difficult
astrangehop
If you live in Kansas, do you really need electricity at night?
smegmaspread
Or during the day?
crodrigues
On certain places you can actually get a ton of energy from tide changes alone; combination of dam with 2way turbine
crodrigues
https://analytica.com/models-for-tidal-energy-how-analytics-can-examine-real-world-environmental/
crodrigues
I love all these renewable energy ideas, even the far fetched like the energy from piezo sidewalks, it's fascinating!
MarcUK
Certain dams do this. With excess power they'll pump water back up.
Twellsw
Towns will as well. Nuclear has constant output but demand during the day is higher than night so excess energy is stored as potential
popeyeNL
Or raise a concrete block.
VanDerJoik
Yeah and thats fucking stupid. But true, some do
METROlD
I work with teams of phd level engineers and they have mentioned this on several occasions. Its fucking brilliant. Downvoters just dont know
RawSugarPackage
My coworker is on one of those type of teams. I keep trying to figure out if I can do a scaled down version for a small farm.
Twellsw
Two pools and a hill. fill lower with water and pump it up during the day, let it fall to lower over night thru a turbine. Scale as needed
RawSugarPackage
Winter is my problem not storage.
METROlD
Okay so here is my understanding. I am IT not an engineer. BUT Solar panel. Basic electrical knowledge. Large rechargeable battery. >>
METROlD
>>Tall vertical shaft with two layers. A straw within another straw. Solar powers a pump that lifts a floating weight in the center 'straw'>
RawSugarPackage
The "idea" is to store it deep underground in a high pressurized container. Release pressure, pass thru turbines, get elec.
WilliamWeird
It solves that "duck shape" problem with energy usage vs solar. Someone just needs to solve the land/space problem
TheVampireDante
Pretty sure if large "wasted" (re: GOP owned) areas of texas and florida were cleared there'd be plenty of space to get a start.
whatpassesforclever
IIRC, a Wyoming-sized solar panel would power the world...the four residents there might have an issue, but we’ll pay ‘em off.
WilliamWeird
No doubt, but we have to make an easily replicated battery to store and transport access energy during the night
spicepoet
Quantum glass hit 800 cycles last year with only a 10 layer. 1 pillow sized battery enough for a 4br house with a 12 year lifespan.
WilliamWeird
Yes, but I'm talking about the capacity equivalent to a hydroelectric dam. Chemical batteries are not a permanent solution.
Styreta
What land space problem? Modern panels on your roof more than cover your energy needs
WilliamWeird
Oh, not the panels themselves, no. The hydroelectric (or other style) battery, and how to put it on the grid
jiynxed
Electricity storage has fairly poor volumetric efficiency in any form that doesn't involve outrageous amounts of money and rare earth mining
Styreta
Fair enough. Electric cars will hopefully make for descent night time storage in the near future
jiynxed
That falls under rare earth mining.
alliusis
Over parking lots, houses, canals. A lot of people live in concrete hell, might as well use them to shade while working.
jiynxed
There have been prototype photoelectric coatings for windows that would turn skyscrapers into power generators
jiynxed
But generating power has never been the problem, it's what we do with the excess. With fossil fuels that's easy, don't use the fuel.
Varenvel
not really new invention , its called Pumped Storage Hydropower. "The first use of pumped storage was in 1907 in Switzerland"
Varenvel
and source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumped-storage_hydroelectricity
malicart
water pressure, when the sun goes down the plug is allowed to settle and force water through turbines to generate electricity at night ...
wremise
the problem of these building is, that you normaly cant find a place to build such a think. you need an reservor 2 times.
JaromirAzarov
That's called pumped-storage hydroelectricity and has been used for decades, except that they usually just use lakes up in the mountains.
GoliathSkittles
There are also gravity batteries. Excess power used to push a heavy train car up hill and then using gravity to get the power back when need
AnAverageBoxEnthusiast
It her emails!!!
hakunamatatamotherfucker
Gravity pumps are still used a lot. We can produce energy a lot, problem is storing it.
Z0op
Yah its basically a more complicated battery, store energy when not needed, there are countless way to do it
malicart
I would call them less complicated batteries, no rare earth minerals needed, just basic physics.
MTbound
In AZ we have solar farms that heat up a salt solution using mirrors that can be stored to make electricity throughout the night
ucmlost
Main issue with that its size and the bird kill. I believe they are called streamers. When birds fly too close they are insta fried.
MTbound
Nope, because it is a bunch of small trough mirrors focused on a pipe with the solution flowing through it. It’s not a single point where
MTbound
All the mirrors are pointing. And it does take up some space, but this specific one was put where an alfalfa field used to be, and it uses
ShadyEsperanto
pumped storage hydropower; it can act as a battery for any power generation source. there are 40 or so in the U.S. right now, I think.
nb723
I wonder what size rig it was take to do this on a small single home scale
spookyu
They make a ton of sense in some places! Really cost effective too. Needs a lot of space though.
neithermenoryou
Germany has 6,700MW of pumped storage alone, these plants exist all over the world already, and more could be built quite easily.
TuckerTheGuy
Why am i learning about this now?
ShadyEsperanto
Slipped under the radar because it's not new, but it is underused. Especially in relation to wind and solar.
EccentricNimoy
No one got shot
usersayswhat
Watertowers are a good example, but there you are storing pressure
malicart
no problem cannot be solved with the application of science and logic when greed is not a factor.
ImgurCouncilOfLlamas
The greedy have an incentive to solve it before anyone else.
lamagra22
I'mma have to look at this. That's a great idea if it works.
Philosopherott
Many Island do this. The pump water up hill to a holding area. Then let him t go for hydro at night. Water battery.
HappyLittleIdiot
These pumping water energy storage methods have atrocious efficiency... but then again, it is all excess power anyway, so better than none.
malicart
Got a source for that? I am seeing between 75-90% efficiency in the articles I am reading.
jiynxed
The efficiency is high, but the power to storage area ratio could be better. But pumped storage setups use already existing reservoirs
JaromirAzarov
What the fuck are you talking about? The efficiency of pumped-storage hydroelectricity is between 75 and 85% and is currently the best /1
JaromirAzarov
method to store large amounts of energy. The problem with those is mainly that you need a convenient place for them, not the efficiency. /2
VictusVonGuyver
That's been around for a long time. They have used water pressure. You can. Also build an empty chute next to it to circulate air, because >
VictusVonGuyver
underground air is usually cooler in the summer and warmer in the winter. Meaning you can heat/cool it faster and cheaper. The reason it >
VictusVonGuyver
Is not widespread for energy storage is because of three factors. 1. Soil, depending on the area you can't dig well and that is pricey >
wthamidoinghere
you can do the same thing with raising and stacking cement blocks then lowering them at night or whenever needed
pandemicmodedad
Also German science.
Hexrowe
Yeah, that's a solution to the ACTUAL problem with solar, wind and other fuel-less power sources: storage.
kamesha
:')
AlmightyThor117
*no problem cannot be solved by giving a power source to an engineer and saying use water with it*
TribuoAuGrimm
The pinnacle of human engineering has always been and will always be boiling water
TribuoAuGrimm
I believe one day we will have space stations that run on antimatter reactors they use to boil water
WorkerLurker
Here’s a AAA battery Head Engineer, use this water bottle full of lake water to make a teleportation device.
AlmightyThor117
*puts battery in a remote to turn on a mini nuclear reactor cooled by the lake water in the bottle that powers a teleporter*
melwil
We already do something similar in Norway, but it’s just pumping water up the river again to be run through the hydroelectric plants.
Anarchduke
poor fish saying "what kind of cyclical hell is this?"
Firestar002
That sounds awesome!
forelle
The advantage of that German guys idea is that you basically just need some area with suitable granite. The more ideas we gather the better
neithermenoryou
We already have that in the form of hydroplants. During excess power periods pumps move water from a lower basin to a higher up basin, and
Shadowkrieger
Let me guess republicans, big oil and idiots say it will pollute the earth or take our sun away?
ImgurCouncilOfLlamas
If not for big oil protection, more efficent energy sources, would win out in the market. The government isn't your friend in this.
swanglemydangle
Why in fact yes, that's exactly what happens https://abc11.com/sun-solar-panels-energy/1122081/
JusticePhrall
Not only blocked the solar farm, they voted for a moratorium on all future solar power.
Shadowkrieger
Yeah, I knew about this one already. Quite stupid.
TheVampireDante
Probably pollute the water which will cause kids to want to go cross dress, save the environment and vote democrat while denouncing guns.
WhistlePig
Hot damn, that's me!
Shadowkrieger
You forgot or ran out of space for antichristian