FrankPembleton
3033
88
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doing research with a local EV owners group (canadian winters are shitty), everyone only had good things to say. "I'd buy another". "never going back to gas". reviews on the model I was looking at were encouraging. our two cars are old and paid for, but they work, and I was content, but I'd been planning on switching to electric for some time.
I must have glossed over how much low temps affect batteries, though I guess I knew on some level from previous experience with smaller electronics. the advertised range of the car is double what my drive home from the dealer was. having not paid enough attention to it during the test drive, I was immediately horrified as I watched the range tick down at about 2-3x the rate of actual travel as I drove away from the dealer. I began to get stressed, to the point of sickness. I'm not about flash, I was content with my old cars. this is the biggest car loan I've ever taken out. and it may not even be useable for me. it was only slightly under 0 celsius.
I've since learned EVs can experience 10-30 or even 40% decrease in range in cold weather. I was witnessing a 60% loss. the high payment would be offset by gas savings I thought. the purchase was rushed as the dealer was honoring a now ended federal EV incentive until the end of the month, $5000 I didn't want to have to swallow later in the year when I had originally planed to purchase.
just over halfway home, the range had gotten so low I had to stop and charge. and even after 40 minutes on charge, I still only barely got home. the kicker, because of the rush to purchase, I dont have a proper charger installed yet. I figured I could charge off a regular outlet overnight, 8-12 hours oughta do the trick. the app informed me I would be charged up after about 80 hours. nearly 4 days. I have a brand new car with a big payment that I basically cant use. leaving it plugged in anyway, I was able to get to work this morning where there are better chargers nearby, but I'm still stuck having to drop it off and then find a way to get where I'm going in the meantime.
despite all this I actually had done some research, but obviously not enough. but the dealer offered absolutely zero in terms of info about the details of owning and using an EV, I was totally left on my own. when I told the salesman I had read some of the manual the night before, he said "you probably know more about it than me". I've always rightfully distrusted the auto industry. here I am now less than 24 hours into a commitment with no ability to return the vehicle, unable to think about anything else since as my wife an I stress over this blunder.
by the way, it wasn't a cybertruck, though I feel as embarrassed as an owner of one should feel
eion85
If you have an electric dryer near your garage you can instal a pretty simple cutover switch that will let you plug in a faster charger for your EV and automatically select which to run.
No added circuit breaker required.
sosume
You wrote "Canadian winters", so I assume you're not in the US. Many US states have a "buyers remorse" window of return to combat pressure sales tactics.
If you feel your misled/misinformed by the dealer's sales dept. you could try starting with their mgmt. to negotiate a buyback, see if they'll discount a Level 2 charger, etc.
StevenAlleyn
If you’re in Quebec you’re supposed to have 30 days to return the vehicle as long as it is under a certain number of km (I think 1,000) since you took possession
YuuzhanVong
I read a blog by someone living around Ottawa buying an ev (I think it was a ford?) many years ago. I tried to find it again but could not. He detailed his range and modified various circumstances.
The biggest thing he said was that he would keep his hat, coat, etc on while driving. he would crack some windows if it wasnt snowing to prevent the windows from fogging up. Keeping the cabin cold was key to more then doubling his range.
The only thing he did for comfort was heated steering wheel
Atomic2
I've had an EV for almost 6 years now in Chicago winters. Feel free to ask me anything. But if you don't message me, consider charging at home with a nema 5-20 outlet before you can get a 240v solution. 5-20 is still 120volts but its a 20amp outlet so its about 33% more throughput than your standard 15amp outlet. Most chargers will easily swap to a 5-20 plug and your garage is likely already able to support it. And if not, its as simple as swapping the outlet and maybe the breaker provided the>>
Atomic2
wire gauge is big enough for it. $15 in parts at most, 20 minutes of your time (But check your wires are at least 12-gauge). Again feel free to pm me. //
Thunderchunks
Take that back yo, get the dealer to swap it. something ain't right- I got several friends with shitty USED EVs (A Nissan Leaf and a Hyundai Ioniq) that didn't see drops that severe in range even during our -40C cold snaps a few months ago here in Alberta. You've gotta have either a defective unit or you're secretly powering a light house lamp somehow, lol.
FrankPembleton
I wouldn't even leave my phone on the wireless charger after I noticed I had put it there by accident early on.
METROlD
DUDE. Youre fine. The only mistake you made was getting an EV without a charger installed at home. This is the charger I have. It gives me 100 miles every 4 hours. My car maxes out at 220 miles on a full charge and I never get even close to using all that in one day. And YES, running your heater at full blast will suck up your battery twice as fast as driving without any AC or heat. Fact of life. But not a bug deal if you have a full charge every morning and only 50 miles to drive every day >>>
METROlD
https://www.amazon.com/ChargePoint-Home-Electric-Vehicle-Charger/dp/B07WNXTHNW?th=1 And by the way when I bought mine, I had the same problem. The dealer was near the end of range for the vehicle, so I barely made it home. I already had a charger though. Once I was home I have 180 - 240 miles per day depending on how much I use the heater or AC. Yesterday I drove 40 miles, but 50% of my battery use was from the heater. But no big deal, cause my charger gives me 25 miles for every hour charging.
budyboy65
Try preconditioning the car before leaving in the morning. Also, adjust your heat setting to something around 70, the car will ACTUALLY try to heat it up to that temp.
dasAchteck
how cold are we talking? i've seen little to no change between 110 and 30 with my leaf.
FrankPembleton
-4c
Sechran
That's only 24.8° F. And we all know Canada, even far southern Canada where 50%+ Canadians live, can get a whole heluva lot worse.
Gilgamech
My non-plugin hybrid has a similar problem, turning into a 20 MPG gas-only boat in the freezing cold, until the batteries warm up and it goes back to 50 MPG.
uzukis
I’ve just got a Chevy Bolt and it’s been great in the snow, it’s been 0F to 20F the past few weeks and with Level 2 charging I can get it charged over night. Sounds like you need a charger upgrade
FrankPembleton
I definitely need a proper charger, but the fact of the range remains and is most concerning. the charger part I can fix. but its pointless if its only getting 40% of its advertised range. I just charged at a public charger and did everything right, so we'll see how the drive home is.
Atomic2
So when you have a proper charger at home, you can usually set these cars to "precondition" which will warm the battery before you set off. Googling it now and the equinox has this function as well. This will greatly improve your efficiency since this will get the battery nice and warm before you set off, and since you're pulling that power from the wall, it won't reduce your range on the leg to work. On the way back, when you precondition, it will eat some of your battery but still worth it.
BenderSaysNeat
The first week I had mine there was a huge snow storm and it tripled my home commute. The car was still learning my driving habits and that, coupled with the cold, left me watching the range dwindle from 'safe' to 'concerning' to 'oh no oh no oh no oh no.' I got home okay and after a year of having this car I've not had that issue since, even with the big snow storm we got in the Midwest a couple of weeks ago. Don't sweat it. You'll get used to anticipating the battery.
FrankPembleton
at the current state this would be fine for back and forth to work, but the trips we take into the city where my wifes family is twice a month would be a no go without a stop in between, and as I said, thats only half the distance of the advertised range. that inconvenience, when winter is 4-5 months of the year here, isn't worth it. I was banking on the advertised range. the folk in the local group all say they dont have as much impact from cold so something is going on
BenderSaysNeat
Could be. I'm sorry you're having trouble. I know it must be frustrating.
Littledirtybirdyfeet
See if you can exchange for a hybrid model
Badger67
Not getting a buzz out of it huh?
GenshiV
I see what you did there. A++, though I wouldn't buy the buzz until it came down in price, which sucks cause I badly want an EV Minivan.
eion85
@FrankPembleton you should really tell us what make and model EV you bought.
Several people have asked and you haven't answered, and the numbers you're sharing don't make sense for any current model EV, and weren't accurate even for first gen ones.
FrankPembleton
I'm going through extreme stress over this situation and you are insinuating I'm being dishonest somehow. if I tell you the model you are just going to go to the website, look up the specs, and contradict my actual experience. I've actually found a facebook group for owners of this model and others are reporting the same awful range in cold weather.
but since you insist, its a new 2025 equinox awd
GenshiV
I've heard varying reports about the Equinox but haven't gotten to drive one myself. Let me look into it and I'll respond more tomorrow if I find anything that might be helpful. I know the AWD gets a bit less range than the FWD, but let me see what I can find on cold weather & that model. Do you plug in overnight by chance? It might help with preconditioning the car in the morning prior to driving.
eion85
Thanks!
It wouldn't be the first time someone posted false claims about EVs online to make them look bad. Sadly this is the world we live in.
Best of luck on things you can do to mitigate any performance issues in winter with your new car.
GenshiV
What vehicle did you end up with OP? I just traded in a Model 3 for an Ioniq 5 (partly due to the fascist CEO), had a Leaf before those!
GenshiV
Let me know, I'm happy to talk about this stuff because I love the electrics I've owned but I think you're in a colder climate than I am.
eion85
/gallery/EbiSkQC/comment/2441364559
GenshiV
Thank you! Not one I've driven unfortunately, but the bolt was great so I'll see what I can find that might help out!
TheobromineAddict
Many homes have a 220vac 30amp electric dryer outlet near the garage that can be used for faster charging. But for 50amp charging you'll need an electrician to modify your service panel.
eion85
and you can even get automatic cutover switches that will prioritize your dryer automatically and charge the EV otherwise, all on the same circuit with no risk of overloading it.
iguanodont
Global Warming has your back, Dogg.
spankeyfish
Advertised ranges for EVs are as real as advertised fuel consumption figures for ICE vehicles. Also, b/c the drivetrain is much more efficient, the speed you drive at has a huge effect on the range and drag increases with the square of the speed, it's not linear. If you're getting low on range, slow down and you'll eke more out of the energy you've got.
spankeyfish
Somebody on the EV reddit calculated the range for an Ioniq 5 at different speeds and dropping your speed from 60 to 50 increases range by about 25% /a/range-vs-speed-ioniq-5-SchC3Vm
Even just slowing from 60 to 55 increases range by about 10%
Newitt
My sympathies, I hope it works out for you & turns out to be a net plus.
CinnamonBunny
Doesn't your car have a battery pre-heating?
eion85
He has a 2025 Equinox EV, which does have cabin preconditioning, but I don't know if the battery heater is part of that or if it will kick on automatically or on a schedule.
OP also only has a Level 1 Charger at home.
tallyhoho
Are you sure you can't return it? For some reason I thought you had 7 days to return a car. And not being accurately informed by the dealership the risks with energy conservation in cold weather seems like a pretty good reason for a contract dispute
americanomuerto
I also thought this. But that’s coming from an American. Not sure if Canada has same rules.
DonutOlympian
I dunno, they don't tell you if you floor a gas car it'll burn more gas. Cold weather effect on batteries is very well known. Especially if you live in a cold weather area.
Littledirtybirdyfeet
I live in the north and probably could use it for my daily driver since I barely do 100 miles a week, but if I had to commute to work, it would be a hell no.
GenXHippie
In the US it’s called The Lemon Law, not to be confused with the party. I don’t know if other areas have it but I would have to hope other countries have this too.
FrankPembleton
We don't have lemon laws because Canada has a lot of car factories so they just hold that over our heads to discourage the gov from implementing such laws. Holding jobs hostage
tallyhoho
Ugh I'm so sorry I'm not familiar with Canadian law. Seems quite unfair though as you've had it less than 48 hours!
DonutOlympian
The lemon laws vary by states but generally requires an unrepairable issue. This seems like a known, documented effect of cold weather on batteries, so it wouldn't be something that's covered.
GenXHippie
I don’t drive an EV but that seems like more dramatic loss than documented, but I drive a 2008 Subaru so what do I know?
LitterBoxKing
Not all US states honor any form of a lemon law. In those states, once you sign the paperwork and the keys are handed over, there are no take-backsies.
PolishSausage42
All US states have a Lemon Law, but it’s varied from state to state and applies directly to warranty issues. Mileage is not a lemon law issue unless it’s due to a manufacturing defect. That being said some states have a cooling off period of 7 days, but that stated on your sales paperwork if it applies.
GenXHippie
Fair enough. I was unaware it was not in every state. Thank you for that.
TomahawkJackson
@op There is SO much information you didn't include here - what car? How low is "I had to stop to charge" - how fast was the charger in Kw? - How much do you NORMALLY drive in any given day. Keep in mind that the US standard is 15k miles/year, or less than 50 miles per day, or 20-25% of the full range of the most common EVs (conversion to km doesn't change that)
You REALLY have to have an edge case if an EV won't actually work for you. Like, "I work 50 miles from home" is a bad time, for sure.
FrankPembleton
50 miles is my round trip commute if I dont have to do a lot of fucking around. its the longer (and frequent) trips into the city (160+ mi) that are apparently out of reach in cold temps that is concerning me. this is a long term commitment and I dont want to have to rely on my wifes car for those longer trips
TomahawkJackson
Actually, it sounds like you guys are set up ideally for your situation, presuming you have a garage and not a carport. 50 miles per day should be do-able once you have the upgraded dedicated charger installed so you can get back to 90% overnight. I keep forgetting that your temps are in C - it's not actually that cold out. We've had quite a few overnights like this here in Portland, OR. 1. Remember to precondition while you're plugged in. Don't blast the heater. Use the heated seats. (1 of 2)?
TomahawkJackson
3. You'll figure out where your reliable charging spots are in Saskatoon or wherever you are over time, but you should be able to find a reliable spot with a restaurant or whatever that's not horrible. If you're driving 160km into the city, surely you're stopping for a meal. Combine it.
4. Remember: BREATHE.
---This is the absolute worst this car will ever be---
It's new and unfamilar tech -, you don't know what to expect, it's a HUGE purchase, and your anxiety is the highest it will ever be.
TomahawkJackson
3/3 - And if it's -17C and harsh wind next December and you take your wife's car to The City for 2-3 trips... That's not horrible.
and - after driving an EV for a bit over 2 years... it really starts to sink in that (does conversion to CAD, etc.) you haven't stopped for gas in FOREVER, you start the day with "a full tank of gas" every day, and your Petrol car cost you $14 CAD / 100km and the EV costs you $4.
acetothermus
That's one open secret about EV's that most people don't know. It's not just cold that effects range, extreme heat will do it as well. I know that anything over 100 degrees F (38C) will effect range almost as badly as the cold. We badly need EV's for you know...the environment. But our current battery tech just isn't there yet. We are working with battery tech that is over 100 years old at this point. Sure chemistry changes have happened, but the principles are unchanged.
viila
Your mistake was letting the charge get really low in adverse conditions without being able to charge it back up at home. The batteries have to charge slower when they're near empty or near full. Once you're able to get the charge back to a reasonable level then fast chargers are actually able to fast charge you and you can use your at-home trickle charging to keep it most of the way topped off. You're better off doing 10 minute charging break when you're at 40% than an hour when you're at 5%.
viila
Basically, the bottom 20% and top 20% of the capacity are where charging is slow. Don't go below 20% if you can help it, and don't bother waiting to charge over 80% unless you can just leave the car there. The middle 60% is where you get the most charge in least amount of time when using fast charging stations.
Smidge204
RE: Charging times. You only need to recharge what you use in a day to be sustainable, so the app saying "80 hours" is not real, in a sense.
Atomic2
This^. Its all about averaging out your charge times for the week. Some days you drive more, some less.
TheobromineAddict
Hope you didn't buy a Swasticar,
GenshiV
No joke, I traded mine in just a few days before 'swasticar' became a thing and I couldn't be happier to be without it!
FrankPembleton
its sad they are probably the best available right now but no I would never consider any product under the nazi umbrella
ArcUlfr
They're not actually the best except when it comes to acceleration at a given price point. Tesla's EPA estimates are inflated; real world testing shows that they aren't nearly as good as claimed.
ArcUlfr
Here is a good example. The Tesla Model Y has an EPA estimated range of 326 miles to the Mach-E's 270 miles, but in testing the Tesla only went 244 miles while the Mach-E managed 276:
https://youtu.be/lSmSiOo-v8s
ZaphodBbx
My approach is to dress for the weather. I wear coat/gloves/hat when I drive in the cold and use enough heat to keep the windows clear.
ZaphodBbx
Similarly in summer I *like* open window more than blasting the AC.
Gilgamech
You'd need to knit sweaters for the batteries. They need to be about room temperature, and in a lot of vehicles they sit outside they cabin. So they're basically heating the outdoors as you drive.
GenshiV
I love that you went straight to 'dress the batteries for the weather.' That was whimsical and delightful. +1 Off to crochet an EV Scarf!
ZaphodBbx
I live in a cold climate, and I find the cabin climate controls have way more impact than the outside temps. And I don't garage our vehicles
Gilgamech
Your battery might be inside the cabin. My non-plugin hybrid is that way - about 1-2 kWh or so is stored underneath the rear seat, and there are air vents to allow circulation. Heating the cabin also heats the batteries.
dwolvin
I have a model 3, and feel you on needing to get the bumper sticker. Do you charge at home? If you get a 14-50 outlet and trickle charge, you can tell the car 'be ready at 7' and the windows will be defrosted and battery warmed up (so fully charged). The rage loss is just cold battery and goes away as it warms.
GenshiV
Get the bumper sticker... I was (until very recently) a model 3 owner & the downward slide of Musk in the last 6 years has been insane.
GenshiV
Sorry you're having to deal with that @dwolvin. I know when I got my model 3 it was because there were no other good long range EV options.
dwolvin
Yeah- I hate stickers and am in a safe~ish location. The only time someone has said something I just pointed to the car and said 'that's 7 years old and paid off, next one won't be T unless they get rid of Muskrat'.
GenshiV
I feel similarly about stickers, though I did briefly consider getting this as a sticker just because it cracks me up every time I see it. I stole it from @woozle
woozle
ha! My wife puts magnets on the car because of my distaste of stickers. We make it work.
eion85
It's a little bit the battery and a lot the heating.
Electrical resistive heating is incredibly inefficient. Your gas engine was wasting a lot of energy through heat that you got for free to heat the cabin.
EVs with heat pumps are much better in winter.
Gilgamech
Exactly. Not heating the car cabin, but heating the batteries directly. A YouTube video showed how a Tesla in Minnesota, on a wall charger, would actually drain the batteries. Because the battery heater was using more energy than the wall charger could provide.
Atomic2
Resistive heating is pretty much by definition 100% efficient. You're turning electricity into heat. Of course its not as "Efficient" as using wasted heat from the gas engine.
eion85
In terms of power usage I what I meant.
eion85
Nor as effective as using a heat pump.
I think we're saying the same thing.
Atomic2
I was just calling out the word "efficiency" being used wrong. I get what you meant of course, but to an engineer, efficiency has a specific meaning and pretty much everything is 100% efficient in turning energy into heat. Everything becomes heat eventually, at least on a macro scale. But yea, on a local scale, heat pumps are more than 100% "efficient".
eion85
I appreciate the correction
FrankPembleton
Mine has a heat pump
eion85
Then it must be very cold where you live.
You shouldn't be losing as much range as you're claiming from just battery effects.
Have you tried minimizing the heating and comparing the range?
FrankPembleton
it was -4 yesterday. I turned the heat off a lot of the way to try and save range, and I wasn't driving fast either.
AeonQuasars
I drive around - 4 entire winter in cold Norway. I never see much issue with battery concerns. If I'm close to empty I just turn of the heat and it works as in the summer. Never had an issue with battery because of winter.
Ulthirm
-4c or f. -4c barely should impact the battery at all. It's been colder over here and we have no problems with battery range decrease.
eion85
He said Celsius elsewhere and I agree. This is fishy.
eion85
What car did you buy?