While a society should take care of it's people, they should also contribute to the society. Welfare programs are important to keeping the vulnerable safe but not to the point they are abused. People who abuse those programs I feel should be cut off so that people that really need help can get it.
The simple fact is we don't live in a time of scarcity anymore. Back when America was founded they didn't have a choice but to work, because not doing so meant starvation for the whole colony. Now we live in a time of unprecedented abundance. The Americas, alone, produce enough food to feed the world. The US has more empty houses and apartments than homeless people. There's no reason anyone should be going to bed hungry, and no reason someone shouldn't *have* a bed to sleep in.
A new New Deal is needed. The Republicans have once again run the country into the ground. We have all the resources needed to give everyone a good life, but a small group of immoral, greedy people thinks otherwise.
The capitalist brain rot runs deep. My sister is an otherwise extremely progressive individual, but whenever the subject of my younger sibling's food stamps comes up, she goes off on how they aren't doing enough to 'earn' them. I have yet to fully convince her that nobody should have the right to decide who 'deserves' to eat.
You must already be employed in your field to seek employment in that field. Worked retail long enough to get into management and it was a huge red flag when I was trying to get professional work with my degree. It's a huge hurdle for the unemployed or homeless go get any work at all.
Look, I'm all for helping those truly in need, but did you know that 99 percent of those so-called "poor people" have both a microwave AND a fridge? Almost 80 percent of them have the gall to have air conditioning. How can they call themselves poor? Those mooching layabouts. /s https://www.statepress.com/article/2011/08/youre-not-poor-you-have-a-microwave
“Human dignity is inviolable” is the central sentence in Article 1 Paragraph 1 of the German Basic Law. - us soldiers gave their life to give us the chance to learn this. we cannot do you the same favour. you have to remember this by yourself. if we can do that every day, you can too.
The problem is, someone has to provide those needs. What we recognize as rights (life, liberty, speech, etc) do not require others to act, but rather require others NOT act against you. While you can say that people should have *access* to things like water, food, and shelter (meaning either buying them or acquiring them by yourself from nature), requiring others to provide those things at the point of a government gun is morally questionable at best, and authoritarian at worst.
The whole society (this includes the government, because it is supposed to work for the general public) provides this for their members. It is its duty, and privilege. Why else are we part of a society? We put in our time and energy into it, so it needs to give us these things (which aren't outlandish or expensive). And those who yet (!) cannot put in their time and energy for the society will be helped so that they can eventually.
A universal basic income would not mean that employers wouldn't be able to hire employees for their needs. It would, however, mean that employers would have to make the hours and conditions much more reasonable. No more over-working/under-paying, making people give up time that should be their own, making new parents have to give up reasonable time with their kids, and so forth!
And that is why we (and by we I mean any nation that calls itself civilized) need universal basic income and nonprofit, community-owned regulators for every vital service. Because a citizen whose physical and psychological needs are met, is a citizen who can choose: choose to have a meaningful job, choose to contribute to their society, choose to make friends, choose to make a family, choose to care for other, choose to just have fun, and above all, never has to choose between those things.
And most people want to work. Just that most work is not fulfilling, engaging or rewarding. Instead you spend like half of your waking hours jumping up and now on command.
Oh no, you must remain in the Ass Kissing Position until you're crippled with a repetitive stress injury. Deviating from the Ass Kissing Position will result in disciplinary action, so take your ibuprofen.
...? I'm not sure you understood the post or its intent. Guaranteeing a home is vastly different than guaranteeing funds to travel wherever you want. And you would just sit at home with hobbies forever, not wanting to interact with or contribute to your community? Again, most people don't want to be hermits.
Agreed. However our population was 3 billion in 1965 and its 8 billion today. We can feed everyone no problem. But resources are going to be a problem as long as we dont manufacture something and keep shipping that overseas. Also, americans use 16% of all annual oil consumption but are 4% of earths population. The rest of the earth is waking up to this and they are getting pissed. Then theres the wars on beown people every 8 years. Fuck americans.
Yeah, they're like "You can have all these things, but you gotta contribute to society, aka get a job." But it's not up to the worker. You can apply for every place in town, but it's up to the company whether they hire you. If nobody does... should we just die??
Pretty sure that is unironically how they believe, yes. Frankly they don't think that "unworthy" jobs should be allowed to have any kind of happiness for their workers either, but they might be willing to negotiate to the absolute barest subsistence existence that allows you to keep working.
But a store clerk or someone working at a fast food joint or the like daring to demand a wage that allows them to *live* instead of just surviving? HERESY!
What a shitty hot take. Everything requires the labor of others unless you're living alone, in the middle of nowhere, completely off the grid. I guess a couple of exceptions are breathing air and soaking up sunshine, but that's about it.
Water, food, healthcare, everything.
Eh, fuck it. Why am I bothering. I doubt you're not so deeply entrenched (or trolling) that I could actually get through to you anyway. May you someday be in need and be fucked by your own policies.
You could acknowledge a right to *access* basic needs like food, water, and shelter, insofar as you have the right to either buy them or acquire them yourself in nature (you could maybe make an argument for a right to hunting, foraging, or farming), but the natural rights we recognize (life, liberty, speech, etc) are "negative rights" because they don't require any action on the part of others, rather they require others NOT act against you.
> The goal of the administration was to eliminate "cut throat competition" by bringing industry, labor, and government together to create codes of "fair practices" and set prices.
“Make half of the nation way dumber and use misinformation to get them to vote against their own interests. Surely this won’t lead to serious problems later, and if it does, fuck em! We got ours”
This post is suggesting that even if you are able to work but choose not to then you still deserve all those things. That's where I, and I think the vast majority of people, disagree. I think where most people do agree is that every job deserves a living wage.
Careful sir, this is imgur or reddit im not sure which. Requiring personal responsibility is something only a fascist would do. Or maybe its an incel. Whatever the current buzzword of the day is. If you do Not See that then you shall be downvoted for not believing in the prescribed imaginary Utopian system were you 'deserve' things for existing.
Don't speak for other people. Nobody asked to be born and yet here we are. Ive worked since I was 13. Never been without a job. But I completely understand someone who does not want to work but still wants to exist with relative safety and comfort in this world.
If the vast majority think that, then the vast majority are incredibly petty and small-minded. Stop concerning yourself with what people "deserve." Pro-tip: you don't know and you never will.
We don't choose to be in this world, the best we can do is make it easier for those who come after to just enjoy the time they are given. Not to mention if everyone is no longer stressed about their basic needs then imagine how much more productive they would be instead of doing the bare minimum of a job they don't want to barely survive.
Nope! If you choose not to work (and that "choice" is often not chosen but let's play pretend) you still deserve to live and receive the minimum requirements. Artists who can't find buyers, homemakers, students, people with disabilities, and even just lazy fuckers all deserve to live.
I think that social pressure would have the majority of people providing to the common good. However what they do may not qualify as work to you. Is creating artwork? It doesn't serve a practical purpose most of the time. Yet we can find that it enriches society. There will always be 1% who each off the system, but I'm okay with that if it improves the lives of the remaining 99%.
I usually think of an old friend who never "worked". My friend group adopted him in the late 90's, one day you'd just come home and it was your turn. We fed him, clothed him, made him a bed. He didn't talk much, just brought... Good vibes. Played guitar, did some dishes, hung out (I lent him to my parents for a week, they watched TV and gardened, mom still talks about him). Today he plays in huge metal bands and brings joy to countless people. I'm proud of my investment for society!
Every job deserves a living wage but like if people can't/don't work they don't deserve to starve to death, they don't deserve to freeze to death in the winter nor broil alive in the summer, nor die from health conditions that could have been easily treated when they weren't emergencies. If they actually want anything past the bare minimum they still get to work for it but there should be a bare minimum that everyone is entitled to.
As technology increases the need for minimum universal basic income increases. Granted we're really not there in terms of needing it just yet but labor protections, and labor regulations do 100% need to increase at least in the US. Remember folkd 401k, SS, and pensions were supposed to work together for retirement. As well minimum wage was invisioned to provide a living wage if you work full time (it absolutely doesn't currently).
Federal minimum wage is nonsense anyway. In many counties nationwide, $15/hr is a completely livable wage for one person. $15/hr doesn't even scratch the surface in many others. ($7.50 isn't a livable wage ANYWHERE)
401k is an individualizing of pensions. ie instead of large part of company profits going into pension pools, you get tax free deductions from your income into a savings account. SocSec was always just welfare for old people cause lots of families' young male money earners died in war and dickheads didn't like 'free money going to bums' so tied an arbitrary contribution requirement.
401K is tax deferred deductions. You will pay the prevalent tax rate when you start using the money. Also social security was intended to be a retirement fund you contribute to, unfortunately the corrupt govt took the funds in exchange for worthless ious at 0% interest rate, to buy bombs andbtax breaks for the epstein class, since before Reagan
They should ease into it with small but regular "stimulus payments". Not enough to make a real difference, but enough that it could get the idea accepted
We can just do it with the tax code, there've been proposals in the past. Change the standard deduction to a standard credit and you've got UBI already.
Sure, so they'd file income taxes and get a few thousand for doing so. And their filing would be really easy. There's no legal requirement to file taxes but there's also no legal prohibition.
Hahaha given how much work even passing a budget is good luck updating the tax code to provide payouts. Not to mention it'd need to be a weekly or at minimum monthly payments for most people. Worst problem as well it'd never be increased unless it's baked into it as adjusted by inflation.
Okay, but do you think it has a better or worse chance than creating an entirely new UBI system? You're right that it would be tough to pass, but the comparison isn't "tax credit vs. nothing" but "tax credit vs. UBI". Doing nothing is still the most likely, but a tax credit would be much easier to pass through (and require less expansion of bureaucracy)
Slavery included food and housing as well as clothes. That being said this system is similar to slavery but not the same. No one is selling our children and breaking up our families. But the current system shares too much with slavery.
This system doesn't include any if thise things you mentioned slavery did, and healthcare was often included. A sick slave or dead slave costs money to replace
Yeah but there was also the fact that if you left your master you could be maimed or killed. Your kids were the property of your owners. As well as any family you had. But my point was with slavery you got food and housing. Over the two slavery is by far still the worst. Not saying our system was great.
Okay, but that's the default state of the world for every living thing. There's no economic system where we don't need people to work - does that mean that everybody for all of history has been a slave?
It's not that people don't need to make money to live. It's that you should be able to make ends meet until you find a new job because you find them shitty, unethical, or taking advantage of employees.
And yes, a LOT of people throughout history have been slaves to their employers. Take coal camps, for instance. People were desperate for jobs so they took up coal mining. On the surface, it seems nice. They even give you a house. But you were paid in scrip which was useless outside of the camp.
Yup - that's why we have economic systems where we need people to not only work for themselves, but we need everybody who can work to work even harder to support people who can't work, otherwise they die. Whether it's capitalism with welfare and charity, socialism, feudalism, or anything else, we still need a lot of people to do a lot of work so that people live - without work, we die.
I like the way you freely blend "the default state of the world for every living thing" with "economic system". It speaks to a level of intellectual dishonesty one can only admire.
Nah he's got a valid point. Every creature needs to work to survive. Especially creatures that live in communities. Right now society does force people to work more than they should, but it's not slavery by any stretch of the imagination.
There are two different and related things here - our economic systems let us expand beyond the basic "everybody has to farm/hunt/forage to survive" and we've never had an economic system that didn't mean "we need people to contribute value to the system so that everybody can survive".
The basic economy is "everybody farms/hunts/forages". Specialization let us do things like have some people make clothes because farmers could grow enough food to cover weavers' needs.
That's the Federal minimum. States can (and 29 have) set higher minimums, as can individual cities. California's minimum is $16.90, Washington State's is $17.30. Seattle, Washington is $21.30
While true, even the state/city minimum wages are often not enough for a person working 40 hours per week to survive in much of that area.
CA's minimim is more than double the fed minimum, sure. But when $16.90 becomes $14.10 after taxes and a cheap studio apartment is $1300 per month, then more than half the hours you work in a month (assuming 40/week) go to rent, another week of hours goes to utilities, leaving a tiny amount left for other bills, food, clothing, and healthcare. For one person
I agree with you that city minimums can be off. Statewide, though - you can get 1 bedroom (not a studio) apartment in Bakersfield, CA for $1050/month. Can't find anything below $2500/month in Santa Cruz. (Example: https://www.apartments.com/the-rowan-apartments-bakersfield-ca/j26xbk7/)
Depends on where. Washington State is $17.13 per hour. Seattle bumps it to $21.30. Burien, $21.26, and Tukwila, $21.20 an hour. Everett is $18.77 to $20.77, depending on company size.
unless the wage is $46.39/hr you're not living beyond a bare sustenance living. UBI can be a bare sustenance living, minimum wage should allow for a comfortable loving beyond bare sustenance.
Sorry, but i cant possibly get behind $93k per year as a minimum. No degree. No specialized trade. No skill. Just press pictures on the register for a McDonalds order and earn $93k per year. No country in the world has implemented full UBI. At some point there has to be an expectation of actual effort in return for your earnings. $46.39 is ludicrous.
That's the minimum amount for anywhere in the US to follow the sustainable living standards of 50% needs, 30% wants, 20% savings. 20/hr was the living wage TWENTY YEARS AGO.
TheConfusedShoes
While a society should take care of it's people, they should also contribute to the society. Welfare programs are important to keeping the vulnerable safe but not to the point they are abused. People who abuse those programs I feel should be cut off so that people that really need help can get it.
FetaForMoses
This would probably resonate better if you had included the post apocalyptic bleak and just sad books you got this froooooo oh fucking shit it’s real?
TorvusBull
The simple fact is we don't live in a time of scarcity anymore. Back when America was founded they didn't have a choice but to work, because not doing so meant starvation for the whole colony. Now we live in a time of unprecedented abundance. The Americas, alone, produce enough food to feed the world. The US has more empty houses and apartments than homeless people. There's no reason anyone should be going to bed hungry, and no reason someone shouldn't *have* a bed to sleep in.
theyallwenttoMexico
We can, but it seems we'd rather pay someone to screw us over.
Osiricus
A new New Deal is needed. The Republicans have once again run the country into the ground. We have all the resources needed to give everyone a good life, but a small group of immoral, greedy people thinks otherwise.
grandestgrandeur
If only our country wasn't being puppeteered by a conglomerate of shareholders though :(
Grandolddrummer
https://media4.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPWE1NzM3M2U1c2wzY2N4ZnRzOWVidGZqYmI4b3YyN2kyZTZsZ21ncHBoeGV1aTl4diZlcD12MV9naWZzX3NlYXJjaCZjdD1n/xTcnSPpiTnnvizsouc/200w.webp
expectnothingstillletdown
The capitalist brain rot runs deep. My sister is an otherwise extremely progressive individual, but whenever the subject of my younger sibling's food stamps comes up, she goes off on how they aren't doing enough to 'earn' them. I have yet to fully convince her that nobody should have the right to decide who 'deserves' to eat.
Redshadow09
i can just hear the crying and bitching from the right just from reading this.
Pokegeologist
You must already be employed in your field to seek employment in that field. Worked retail long enough to get into management and it was a huge red flag when I was trying to get professional work with my degree. It's a huge hurdle for the unemployed or homeless go get any work at all.
tlotig
What if they work for ice?
Hatlled
Reasons why I question why I want to be alive much longer.
graceinsheepsclothing
I hope you'll continue on with us.
AyatollahBahloni
Velkommen til Norge...
ThDubya
Most Norwegians don't have air conditioning at home, though. So we can't tick all the boxes.
marsilies
Look, I'm all for helping those truly in need, but did you know that 99 percent of those so-called "poor people" have both a microwave AND a fridge? Almost 80 percent of them have the gall to have air conditioning. How can they call themselves poor? Those mooching layabouts. /s https://www.statepress.com/article/2011/08/youre-not-poor-you-have-a-microwave
PunkOfSteam
Worried about losing all but the last one. I haven't had that in a long time.
torp
Communist !
SMarkt
“Human dignity is inviolable” is the central sentence in Article 1 Paragraph 1 of the German Basic Law. - us soldiers gave their life to give us the chance to learn this. we cannot do you the same favour. you have to remember this by yourself. if we can do that every day, you can too.
cbale2000
The problem is, someone has to provide those needs. What we recognize as rights (life, liberty, speech, etc) do not require others to act, but rather require others NOT act against you. While you can say that people should have *access* to things like water, food, and shelter (meaning either buying them or acquiring them by yourself from nature), requiring others to provide those things at the point of a government gun is morally questionable at best, and authoritarian at worst.
michiyl
The whole society (this includes the government, because it is supposed to work for the general public) provides this for their members. It is its duty, and privilege. Why else are we part of a society? We put in our time and energy into it, so it needs to give us these things (which aren't outlandish or expensive). And those who yet (!) cannot put in their time and energy for the society will be helped so that they can eventually.
JackSnare
10/10 would pay higher taxes for this
BennyGun
I'm especially loving the 'don't work, don't eat' slogan of modern "Christians"
whooshy
A sense of security
urusername2
A universal basic income would not mean that employers wouldn't be able to hire employees for their needs. It would, however, mean that employers would have to make the hours and conditions much more reasonable. No more over-working/under-paying, making people give up time that should be their own, making new parents have to give up reasonable time with their kids, and so forth!
ThatGuyFromJustSouthOfTheMiddleOfNowhere
HardTimeKillinFoulNews
And that is why we (and by we I mean any nation that calls itself civilized) need universal basic income and nonprofit, community-owned regulators for every vital service. Because a citizen whose physical and psychological needs are met, is a citizen who can choose: choose to have a meaningful job, choose to contribute to their society, choose to make friends, choose to make a family, choose to care for other, choose to just have fun, and above all, never has to choose between those things.
Khanamana324
And also universal, single payer healthcare.
HardTimeKillinFoulNews
Of course. I inferred it in "vital service".
ElusiveThing
And most people want to work. Just that most work is not fulfilling, engaging or rewarding. Instead you spend like half of your waking hours jumping up and now on command.
AFelineMassofEyes
Oh no, you must remain in the Ass Kissing Position until you're crippled with a repetitive stress injury. Deviating from the Ass Kissing Position will result in disciplinary action, so take your ibuprofen.
Schoonbot
That'll be the last day that I work. And I think that might be the problem
DarkZalgo
You would be among the minority with that mindset. Most people don't want to do nothing with their lives.
Schoonbot
I never said id do nothing. Lots of hobbies and traveling to do. Why must work=meaning?
DarkZalgo
...? I'm not sure you understood the post or its intent. Guaranteeing a home is vastly different than guaranteeing funds to travel wherever you want. And you would just sit at home with hobbies forever, not wanting to interact with or contribute to your community? Again, most people don't want to be hermits.
andexer
"There must be a hierarchy! Some people must suffer for me to feel superior!" -conservatives
JohnSmithterms
Agreed. However our population was 3 billion in 1965 and its 8 billion today. We can feed everyone no problem. But resources are going to be a problem as long as we dont manufacture something and keep shipping that overseas. Also, americans use 16% of all annual oil consumption but are 4% of earths population. The rest of the earth is waking up to this and they are getting pissed. Then theres the wars on beown people every 8 years. Fuck americans.
mindstorm8191
Yeah, they're like "You can have all these things, but you gotta contribute to society, aka get a job." But it's not up to the worker. You can apply for every place in town, but it's up to the company whether they hire you. If nobody does... should we just die??
Daliena06
Pretty sure that is unironically how they believe, yes. Frankly they don't think that "unworthy" jobs should be allowed to have any kind of happiness for their workers either, but they might be willing to negotiate to the absolute barest subsistence existence that allows you to keep working.
But a store clerk or someone working at a fast food joint or the like daring to demand a wage that allows them to *live* instead of just surviving? HERESY!
mrmartini
cbale2000
None of those things are "rights" but rather government entitlements payed for at the expense of productive people.
Akurei00
What a shitty hot take. Everything requires the labor of others unless you're living alone, in the middle of nowhere, completely off the grid. I guess a couple of exceptions are breathing air and soaking up sunshine, but that's about it.
Water, food, healthcare, everything.
Eh, fuck it. Why am I bothering. I doubt you're not so deeply entrenched (or trolling) that I could actually get through to you anyway. May you someday be in need and be fucked by your own policies.
cbale2000
You could acknowledge a right to *access* basic needs like food, water, and shelter, insofar as you have the right to either buy them or acquire them yourself in nature (you could maybe make an argument for a right to hunting, foraging, or farming), but the natural rights we recognize (life, liberty, speech, etc) are "negative rights" because they don't require any action on the part of others, rather they require others NOT act against you.
B0ardski
the bush regime negated the 1st bill of right's to create the DHS
cenfou2tout
Fun fact : Roosevelt founded the NRA !
cenfou2tout
No, not that one...
ByThePowerOfSCIENCE
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Recovery_Administration
> The goal of the administration was to eliminate "cut throat competition" by bringing industry, labor, and government together to create codes of "fair practices" and set prices.
cenfou2tout
I didn't say it was a bad thing, even if it was judged against the constitution...
TheTojo15
Every republican leader since then:
ostensiblystupid
“Make half of the nation way dumber and use misinformation to get them to vote against their own interests. Surely this won’t lead to serious problems later, and if it does, fuck em! We got ours”
faphappyscreencappy
The GOP:
Decitron
Not just the Republicans. All politicians who support the "free market" of capitalism/ capitalists determining our value as people.
DavidRescinded
https://media4.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPWE1NzM3M2U1cTUwNnc4M2IxZ3Z6dWF1OWV5ajZpaWx6OWE3N29tdndqcnM3c20xZiZlcD12MV9naWZzX3NlYXJjaCZjdD1n/h4IzRl9D2t0O3zMkno/200w.webp
spacecowboyein
This post is suggesting that even if you are able to work but choose not to then you still deserve all those things. That's where I, and I think the vast majority of people, disagree. I think where most people do agree is that every job deserves a living wage.
PorterPickUp
Careful sir, this is imgur or reddit im not sure which. Requiring personal responsibility is something only a fascist would do. Or maybe its an incel. Whatever the current buzzword of the day is. If you do Not See that then you shall be downvoted for not believing in the prescribed imaginary Utopian system were you 'deserve' things for existing.
Sailboatt
Don't speak for other people. Nobody asked to be born and yet here we are. Ive worked since I was 13. Never been without a job. But I completely understand someone who does not want to work but still wants to exist with relative safety and comfort in this world.
razorsharpdoubleedgedlegaldualmindblades
If the vast majority think that, then the vast majority are incredibly petty and small-minded. Stop concerning yourself with what people "deserve." Pro-tip: you don't know and you never will.
Green11ndys
We don't choose to be in this world, the best we can do is make it easier for those who come after to just enjoy the time they are given. Not to mention if everyone is no longer stressed about their basic needs then imagine how much more productive they would be instead of doing the bare minimum of a job they don't want to barely survive.
Khanamana324
Yes, a person who chooses not to work should have all of their basic needs met. Thinking otherwise is pretty psychopathic.
TinyBadger101
Nope! If you choose not to work (and that "choice" is often not chosen but let's play pretend) you still deserve to live and receive the minimum requirements. Artists who can't find buyers, homemakers, students, people with disabilities, and even just lazy fuckers all deserve to live.
BeaverOnFire
I think that social pressure would have the majority of people providing to the common good. However what they do may not qualify as work to you. Is creating artwork? It doesn't serve a practical purpose most of the time. Yet we can find that it enriches society. There will always be 1% who each off the system, but I'm okay with that if it improves the lives of the remaining 99%.
mouthfullofpebbles
I usually think of an old friend who never "worked". My friend group adopted him in the late 90's, one day you'd just come home and it was your turn. We fed him, clothed him, made him a bed. He didn't talk much, just brought... Good vibes. Played guitar, did some dishes, hung out (I lent him to my parents for a week, they watched TV and gardened, mom still talks about him). Today he plays in huge metal bands and brings joy to countless people. I'm proud of my investment for society!
hellothisispeggy
Every job deserves a living wage but like if people can't/don't work they don't deserve to starve to death, they don't deserve to freeze to death in the winter nor broil alive in the summer, nor die from health conditions that could have been easily treated when they weren't emergencies. If they actually want anything past the bare minimum they still get to work for it but there should be a bare minimum that everyone is entitled to.
Green11ndys
A universal basic income if you will
Revnis
As technology increases the need for minimum universal basic income increases. Granted we're really not there in terms of needing it just yet but labor protections, and labor regulations do 100% need to increase at least in the US. Remember folkd 401k, SS, and pensions were supposed to work together for retirement. As well minimum wage was invisioned to provide a living wage if you work full time (it absolutely doesn't currently).
anjeleyezjr
BUT THAT'S SOCIALISM!- some conservative jizzstain, probably
rudejohn
Federal minimum wage is nonsense anyway. In many counties nationwide, $15/hr is a completely livable wage for one person. $15/hr doesn't even scratch the surface in many others. ($7.50 isn't a livable wage ANYWHERE)
SinStar87
401k is an individualizing of pensions. ie instead of large part of company profits going into pension pools, you get tax free deductions from your income into a savings account. SocSec was always just welfare for old people cause lots of families' young male money earners died in war and dickheads didn't like 'free money going to bums' so tied an arbitrary contribution requirement.
Marsupialmessiah
401K is tax deferred deductions. You will pay the prevalent tax rate when you start using the money. Also social security was intended to be a retirement fund you contribute to, unfortunately the corrupt govt took the funds in exchange for worthless ious at 0% interest rate, to buy bombs andbtax breaks for the epstein class, since before Reagan
vnqx
They should ease into it with small but regular "stimulus payments". Not enough to make a real difference, but enough that it could get the idea accepted
Imalwaysready
The realistic threat of wide scale unemployment will swiftly outpace this plan.
Revnis
Stimulus payments would immediately be withheld the second Republicans were to take office. So it'd 100% need to be a passed law with direct growth
vnqx
They were in power when they did the pandemic ones. It just needs to be framed as helping the economy instead of helping people.
pgdave
We can just do it with the tax code, there've been proposals in the past. Change the standard deduction to a standard credit and you've got UBI already.
vnqx
That doesn't help the unemployed who need it the most, because people who earn less than $15,750 don't need to file income taxes
pgdave
Sure, so they'd file income taxes and get a few thousand for doing so. And their filing would be really easy. There's no legal requirement to file taxes but there's also no legal prohibition.
pgdave
Plus, it would have minimal impact on current revenues and outlays while providing an on-ramp to increasing it as the economy requires.
Revnis
Hahaha given how much work even passing a budget is good luck updating the tax code to provide payouts. Not to mention it'd need to be a weekly or at minimum monthly payments for most people. Worst problem as well it'd never be increased unless it's baked into it as adjusted by inflation.
pgdave
Okay, but do you think it has a better or worse chance than creating an entirely new UBI system? You're right that it would be tough to pass, but the comparison isn't "tax credit vs. nothing" but "tax credit vs. UBI". Doing nothing is still the most likely, but a tax credit would be much easier to pass through (and require less expansion of bureaucracy)
Hexidimentional
Minimum wage is slavery
AlysObv
They would pay less if they could get away with it
(you know who they are...)
SavageDrums
The vast majority of us are living in a "work or die" world. If not slavery, it's forced labour.
Akurei00
Employer sponsored insurance plans are slavery as well.
andexer
Serfdom. Attaching the serfs to the land.
Isthe4thtimethecharm
Slavery included food and housing as well as clothes. That being said this system is similar to slavery but not the same. No one is selling our children and breaking up our families. But the current system shares too much with slavery.
MrSpookywasagoodboy2
This system doesn't include any if thise things you mentioned slavery did, and healthcare was often included. A sick slave or dead slave costs money to replace
Isthe4thtimethecharm
Yeah but there was also the fact that if you left your master you could be maimed or killed. Your kids were the property of your owners. As well as any family you had. But my point was with slavery you got food and housing. Over the two slavery is by far still the worst. Not saying our system was great.
MrSpookywasagoodboy2
In the system we have today, you have 3 jobs have to decide between food housing or healthcare. Both systems suck.
pgdave
What do you think slavery is?
mylastaccountwashackedin2014
Work or die
pgdave
Okay, but that's the default state of the world for every living thing. There's no economic system where we don't need people to work - does that mean that everybody for all of history has been a slave?
Akurei00
It's not that people don't need to make money to live. It's that you should be able to make ends meet until you find a new job because you find them shitty, unethical, or taking advantage of employees.
And yes, a LOT of people throughout history have been slaves to their employers. Take coal camps, for instance. People were desperate for jobs so they took up coal mining. On the surface, it seems nice. They even give you a house. But you were paid in scrip which was useless outside of the camp.
MrSpookywasagoodboy2
Yes
mylastaccountwashackedin2014
My grandparents, my disabled brother, countless other folk who cant work: Die.
pgdave
Yup - that's why we have economic systems where we need people to not only work for themselves, but we need everybody who can work to work even harder to support people who can't work, otherwise they die. Whether it's capitalism with welfare and charity, socialism, feudalism, or anything else, we still need a lot of people to do a lot of work so that people live - without work, we die.
DisUsernameAmsDildos
You're coming awfully close to common sense; that kinda talk don't fly around here
OffTheGrid99
Yes, in short, if you have no choice but to work then you are a slave.
Donfolstar
I like the way you freely blend "the default state of the world for every living thing" with "economic system". It speaks to a level of intellectual dishonesty one can only admire.
GenericValue
Nah he's got a valid point. Every creature needs to work to survive. Especially creatures that live in communities. Right now society does force people to work more than they should, but it's not slavery by any stretch of the imagination.
pgdave
There are two different and related things here - our economic systems let us expand beyond the basic "everybody has to farm/hunt/forage to survive" and we've never had an economic system that didn't mean "we need people to contribute value to the system so that everybody can survive".
The basic economy is "everybody farms/hunts/forages". Specialization let us do things like have some people make clothes because farmers could grow enough food to cover weavers' needs.
onemightyandstrong
Depends on how minimum. Right now it’s pretty minimum.
Hexidimentional
adjusting for exchange rate my country's minimum wage is a little more than double the usas
gablestout
That's the Federal minimum.
States can (and 29 have) set higher minimums, as can individual cities. California's minimum is $16.90, Washington State's is $17.30. Seattle, Washington is $21.30
Badprenup
While true, even the state/city minimum wages are often not enough for a person working 40 hours per week to survive in much of that area.
CA's minimim is more than double the fed minimum, sure. But when $16.90 becomes $14.10 after taxes and a cheap studio apartment is $1300 per month, then more than half the hours you work in a month (assuming 40/week) go to rent, another week of hours goes to utilities, leaving a tiny amount left for other bills, food, clothing, and healthcare. For one person
rudejohn
I agree with you that city minimums can be off. Statewide, though - you can get 1 bedroom (not a studio) apartment in Bakersfield, CA for $1050/month. Can't find anything below $2500/month in Santa Cruz. (Example: https://www.apartments.com/the-rowan-apartments-bakersfield-ca/j26xbk7/)
gablestout
Depends on where. Washington State is $17.13 per hour. Seattle bumps it to $21.30. Burien, $21.26, and Tukwila, $21.20 an hour. Everett is $18.77 to $20.77, depending on company size.
hellothisispeggy
Oklahoma is $7.25 per hour, keep in mind there's not actually anywhere in the country someone can actually afford a single bedroom apartment on that.
FaeVikingPrincess
unless the wage is $46.39/hr you're not living beyond a bare sustenance living. UBI can be a bare sustenance living, minimum wage should allow for a comfortable loving beyond bare sustenance.
gablestout
Sorry, but i cant possibly get behind $93k per year as a minimum. No degree. No specialized trade. No skill. Just press pictures on the register for a McDonalds order and earn $93k per year. No country in the world has implemented full UBI. At some point there has to be an expectation of actual effort in return for your earnings. $46.39 is ludicrous.
FaeVikingPrincess
That's the minimum amount for anywhere in the US to follow the sustainable living standards of 50% needs, 30% wants, 20% savings. 20/hr was the living wage TWENTY YEARS AGO.