Decitron
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Conservative/ Liberal hypocrisy with Israel empowers Russian trolls & shills, while undermining The US and West's supposed commitment to rule of law. Slava Ukrani. Free Palestine. Fuck all tyrants and ethnonationalists AND their enablers.
Sauce: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/MAX6oyE61IA
YourBiologicalStepDadUncleRob
Local person running for state Senate was asked last week their stance on Medicare expansion. Her answer: It's complicated, and I'll know what I think about it once I'm elected. What a POS
ZeRootOfAllEvil
Piers Morgan, who hacked a dead girl's phone, that Piers Morgan, is morally inconsistent?
WeeemRCB
My girl was a sweetheart that just wanted to help others. Yet she died young and yet POS Morgan gets to live.
It pisses me off every time I see him
ExquisiteConundrum
100% fuck Piers Morgan and fuck Israel.
AlexBulda
Can we also add Putin to that statement
ShitIcantfindausername
As a Brit, I would like to sincerely apologise for Piers Morgan.
Decitron
As an American, I have no room to blame all yall for your right-wing morons. Truth is, they're in every country (and it's a problem).
OkButWhyWereTheyFilming
Piers Morgan is a great example of Dunning Kruger
svga
can't it be both? complicated shouldn't be a curse word
Decitron
It's complicated in the sense that "a lot of stuff happened over many years, most all of which is awful". Morally it's actually pretty cut and dry; Zionism is a settler-colonial ethnonationalist ideology that stole land that an indigenous people were living on to start a nation for themselves and in the process generated a lot of hate and nationalism in the region.
mephiston
piers morgan being a shitbag? im shocked. well, not that shocked.
Wuz314159
Like Ronan Farrow, too good at his job for msnbc.
cabalin
You just have to give our policy in the Middle East a few more decades.
NonFungibleUsername
Remember that time when Jeremy Clarkson punched Piers Morgan? I enjoyed that.
Decitron
One racist prick punching another. If only they could have both fell into a [redacted].
spinballwizardmtg
bUt isRaEl arE OuR aLliEs!!!11!one!1
MarioBoon
It's really not complicated: the Western world still has this guilt thing to what they did for centuries to the jews, culminating in the Holocaust. This guilt absolves Israel from all the consequences of its actions and it knows that! Also, Palestinians aren't white people practicing the right religion.
downvoteifyouhatekittens
Morgan is a prick and what Israel is doing is disgusting but Ukraine hasn't been attacking Russia. Not really comparable. Don't know why it's so hard for people to just admit that all sides are awful in the middle east and it's innocent people caught in the crossfire
bcrice
This is patently false. Whatever you feel about either side in the conflict, Ukraine was shelling native Russians in the Donbass region for years after the Minsk accords. They we're clearly violating the peace agreement. Just because they weren't attacking Russian territory directly doesn't make it okay.
Decitron
Because the start of it, over 75 years ago, was Zionists colonizing/ invading Palestinians, and begetting a campaign of brutal ethnic cleansing through mass rape, murder, and sterilization. I hope we can agree that the tactics of targeting civilians used by Hamas are indefensible, same with Israel. while also acknowledging that Palestinians aren't the initializers of the nearly-century-long brutal aggression/ colonization, same as Ukraine not being the initializers of aggression.
Thesavagehamster
I had a whole thing typed out but I'll just get dragged into a big argument here. Please try and educate yourself on the actual history of the conflict. It IS complicated. And your characterization of its inception is woefully uninformed at best.
Decitron
My characterization is formed by reading and listening to a lot of historians, including Jewish Israeli historians, at least one of whom (Benny Morris) is a Zionist that doesn't deny what happened for the most part, among others. I've read teh words of Zionism's founder Herzl calling it a "colonial" (his word) endeavor, and calling for the need to expel "indigenous" (his word) Arabs. I've read the militant Zionists call for ethnically cleansing Arabs and history from the region.
rigello
THIS Mehdi Hasan? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pfbv70cgblI
BrickShakes
Only right wingers believe people can't change, it's essential to their beliefs about race, sex and so on.
Decitron
Yes. And he owns up to how wrong and dumb those comments and beliefs were, and condemns them, rather than try to hide from them or justify like many Zionists and their supporters do about their overtly genocidal and racist comments and actions.
rigello
Oh, a reformed religious fanatic, homophobe and hate monger. How convenient.
xizar
Seeing coverage of Israel's invasion of its neighbors is disgusting. The invasions are disgusting, too, but the whitewashing is fucked up.
twsx
Hated that guy ever since I saw him in Home Alone 2.
Decitron
I hate that joke out of respect for Brenda Fricker, who, as far as I know, is a nice lady.
twsx
Well. Fair enough.
abortedfetusnecropheliac
"Piers Morgan Uncensored" Who had that fucking awful idea? Censor him more so that nobody has to hear his awful shite ever again :V
dewdar
As much as I dislike Piers, I have to disagree. Imho, he provides the platform for people like Mehdi, Bassem or Lowkey, more than any other mainstream media. Yes, he interrupts, yes he's hypocritical. Those reasonable voices feel like such a rear phenomenon in mainstream media. Seeing them confronting people like Piers is pretty satisfying. So, keep him, I'd say.
abortedfetusnecropheliac
Fair enough, I'd rather his face was caved in with a brick so he can't spread hateful bullshit anymore.
Decitron
I blame capitalists who wanted to make money off of bigots who wanted to pay to hear their shitty opinions laundered back to themselves.
USSBigBooty
Why provide him a platform at all?
captainfakeypants
As much as I hate Piers Morgan, he's right in that the situation in Israel is much more complicated - both with Hezbollah and Hamas; Ukraine was illegally invaded by Putin during Ukraine's peace time. With regards to Gaza and Lebanon, Islamic extremists rose to the top of civil wars in those respective countries, formed a debatably-legal government through sham elections, and immediately preceded to escalate their civil war with neighbouring Israel territories that were also stable and at peace.
WillLickNudibranchsForBUzz
Ukraine used to be russian territory, and a large part of the population before 2014 were russian nationals. To claim ukraine is not complicated is not true, if palestine is considered complicated.
GrenithTheSkald
Ukraine was originally the Cossack Hetmanate, who became a protectorate of Russia. Despite being promised independance, their kindom was dissolved by Russia and declared simply as a Russian territory. Ukraine later formed from that same people/region as a new independent country after the Soviet Union collapsed.
So it's very simple. A sovereign country (Ukraine) is being invaded by a foreign power (Russia). They've had 30+ years of sovereignty. Russia is an invader. Simple as that.
WillLickNudibranchsForBUzz
So.. a few hundred years of territorial history is 'not complicated', except if it's in the middle east? Or do we agree that the palestine conflict is also very simple, a sovereign state was invaded and is still occupied by an opressor?
txinjing9000
Both Hezbollah and Hamas were formed in response to Israeli aggression/oppression towards Lebanon and Palestine. I don't like how you frame the formation of these terrorists groups as the result of "civil war". It relieves Israel and America of their responsibility in creating the conditions where terrorism thrives.
captainfakeypants
Sure, this war has been raging for centuries, like I said - "the situation in Israel is much more complicated". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestine_war#Background covers the majority of the root causes. In my lifetime, the semi-peace/ceasefires have always been broken by Palestinian paramilitary groups attacking/invading Israel. I'm not here to defend Israel's massively disproportionate retaliations, or justify Israel's expulsion of Palestinians from within 'their' borders.
txinjing9000
How can you expect people who are basically living in an apartheid state to not act violently? Everyday they are subjected to oppression and violence. They don't even control their water or movement in and out of areas. Like what Mehdi Hasan says in this clip, saying this situation is complicated avoids assigning moral responsibility.
downvoteifyouhatekittens
Imagine defending actual terrorist organizations.
txinjing9000
I'm not defending just correcting a misinfo. If we don't learn how and why terrorism happens, we will never solve the issue. Just look at our response to Al-Qaeda and ISIS, we bombed the shit out of them and yet they still exist and growing. So clearly just attacking them doesn't actually solve the issue.
Nalianna
Did you watch the video at all?
HoldingAccount
Did Ukraine bomb Russia before the invasion? Did they take Russian civilians as hostages before the invasion?
I'm NOT saying what Israel is doing is anywhere near right, but I do agree with *gagging noises* Piers with the notion that these situations are not the same in origin. Israel is bad, Russia is worse for the reasons that this has been started.
Decitron
Did Palestine bomb Israel before Zionists colonized Palestine, stealing land and taking on the majority of political rights on behalf of the British empire?
HoldingAccount
Well, that situation sound a bit more... complicated.
Decitron
Not really. The Zionists tried colonizing other places, and where open about it being a colonial project with the need to oust the indigenous peoples from the start. The British promised Palestinians independence if they helped overthrow the Ottomans (which they did) but then instead gave the bulk of the country to the Zionists, including the political power, pissing off the Palestinains who were being invaded/ colonized by said Zionists.
Spanky44
A lot of people in the comments not understanding what the guy is saying here, so I will break it down. One situation is one thing happened, then bad guy did bad thing. The other situation is many things happened over a long time, then bad guy did bad thing. You are still the bad guy, and you are still doing the bad thing. (Killing children, genocide etc.) Trying to justify it and say it's OK to do the bad thing because of this, or that, (it's complicated) makes you an asshole.
englishmaninnm
Mehdi Hasan is one of the best things to come out of my town.
Mjaubiz
You sure? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pfbv70cgblI
Multipew
To be fair not much else has ever come out of Swindon
herbeCookieBreaker
Maybe Tilda?
Multipew
Tilda Swindon?
englishmaninnm
Recently, yes. Unless you count Billie Piper. Historically, a fair amount.
Multipew
I'm not sure where I stand regarding Billie Piper. On one hand she's an Attenborough-level national treasure and as beautiful as either queen Elizabeth. On the other hand she married a complete bellend.
englishmaninnm
Yeah I know. I loved her as Rose in Doctor Who. I think, though can't be sure, she's got a restraining order on him. I wonder if she married him before he was fully a national embarrassment?
delpharseven
The late Michael Brooks, back in 2020: https://youtu.be/62I61kBahNY "It's not a complex issue. That's the big thing, it's super simple: there's one group that has enormous power - it's the most powerful country in the Middle East, it's backed by the United States, it acts on another population of people with total impunity and is never held accountable for anything. So there is no symmetry in the relationship, period."
sqeaky
I don't see an intelligent way to say the Middle East is "super si.ple". Israel wasn't invading Gaza before that big attack, there were containment issues abuses by border guards, there was mixed rules on that, but then Palestine also had Constitution that mandated the destruction of Israel. There's no shortage of bullshit and everyone thinks they're just defending themselves and they're sort of right. And that's all before we get to the mind destroying thing that is religion. It is so complex.
HootSloot
Israel is literally illegally occupying territory per international law, the UN has ruled in this like 42 times. Palestine is Israeli occupied territory. They are not an independent state, haven't been since 67. Israel controls everything that goes on or out, every calorie is counted, it is an open air prison. They gave up on the illegal settlement strategy in Gaza because it wasn't working like it is in the west Bank.
HootSloot
This is not a conflict between states, it is an apartheid state built on illegal occupation. Palestine is not free, it doesn't even control its own borders.
Hammerwell
It is complex insofar as that the term occupier doesn't apply in the past if you look at the history of this stretch of land. There was no single country before there. It was ever a part of other countries. The first time there was something akin to an independent area there (other than Israel), was as Israel conceded land to the Palestinian authorities in (2005?). Speaking of occupation if they renege on that is open to debate. But all that doesn't free you of using a measure of human decency.
sqeaky
There are a lot of good arguments to say why this is complex and you pick the one that could seemingly be settled with appeals to a dictionary? Not the arguments that talk about self-defense and the rights of both sides to have self-determination, you ignore the history of attempts at genocide from both sides?
Hammerwell
A dictionary? The problem is not complicated because of language but because of intermingling back and forth. And as the "disagreenents" are still ongoing and peaceful living side by side is apparently not an option despite attempts, we can only sit and wait.
ElroydIsGone
If Isrealis and Palestinians would live on a remote island with no one around them, it would become that simple, yes. But with all the other, larger neighbours around, who have been trying to wipe the whole of Israel from the map from the very beginning and - because they couldn't - "supported" Palestinians to at least harm and weaken Israel and abused the cry "Freedom for Palestine" to mask their "destroy Israel" agenda, it becomes much more complicated and very, very messy. >
ElroydIsGone
Most Arab countries only ever supported Palestinians as cannon fodder against Israel. As soon as their "beloved fighters" retreated to their own countries and demanded or took their "hero" privileges from them, these countries became very, very unfriedly quite quickly.
Only seeing Israel and Palestinians is like only seeing "big bad" Ukraine killing the poor, weak freedomloving people in Donbas, without the big player behind them. Just my 2c. Doesn't take from the shit Israel has done, >
ElroydIsGone
and especially what the Fascist butcher Netanjahu and his goons are doing right now, but for some of Israel's shit in the past, there are legit reasons.
Besides, few countries in the region - if any - have done substantially better over the decades, but Arabs killing Arabs usually doesn't bother anyone outside the affected countries, so there isn't such colossal global outrage about that.
michaeloberg
No, it's still not complicated. Israel is solely responsible for their own war crimes and crimes against humanity against the Palestinians. They are the occupier, they have legal, ethical and moral responsibilities that they consistently and continually deny while openly murdering innocents since before either of us were even born.
Don't use the fascist abuser "look what you made me do" framing, it's not correct and is actually morally reprehensible
ElroydIsGone
They surely are responsible for all the abuse they do under the guise of security concerns, like slowly driving the Palestinians out of the West Bank and giving their rabid settlers free hand there and protect them (instead of, say, the Gaza border on Oct 7th, but acting as if they hadn't been attacked and their right to exist constantly denied by their neighbours regardless of what they did to the Palestinians or not is also very dishonest.
michaeloberg
Israeli "abuses" are widespread murder, oppression, starvation, theft of land, widespread destruction of homes and businesses, explicitly killing children to terrorize, etc
Not slowing down traffic, jesus fucking christ
ElroydIsGone
Yeah, all that comes with "abuse", when it's done on the grand scale, sorry if I didn't phrase it more clearly.
However, being constantly threatened by total annihilation as a state (and you can bet what would follow after that) is also more than some spoiled sunday party.
Hellscourge
Reminds me of Discworld.
"Its more complicated than that."
"No. It ain’t. When people say things are a lot more complicated than that, they means they’re getting worried that they won’t like the truth."
sqeaky
But it really is just more complicated. Ukraine was minding its own business and got invaded. Gaza invaded Israel and Israel's reaction plausibly started as self-defense and now can plausibly be called genocide. Had in the likely conditions that Hamas was encouraged to do the invasion by Iran to interrupt a larger peace deal that Israel was trying to broker with Saudi Arabia and it's clear that Isreal was open to a larger peace, then we need to layer on years of abuse from Israel... And then...
IhopeyougetstageIIIcoloncancer
Gaza didn't "invade" Israel.
Also, Hamas was installed and supported by Netanyahu for years because he saw Hamas as the worst option for Palestinian statehood, which he believed was in Israel's best interests.
It's not complicated: Israel spent decades antagonizing Palestine, deliberately installed a government with extremist ideologies to destabilize Palestine, and then got attacked and acted like it was totally unprovoked and unexpected as they murdered nearly 100x the people in retaliation.
echonite
John Oliver has a good episode breaking down the situation and its pretty clear to understand that Israel is the shitbag here. Illegally occupying territory, colonizing it, and trying to genocide the original inhabitants.
Decitron
Yeah, I linked that episode to some folk in the comments who blame kids who couldn't even vote for Hamas being in power, and deserving this shit for Hamas' actions. Seems they didn't appreciate it.
echonite
Yeah, the only thing "complicated" here is the length of the occupation resulting in kids growing to adults who have lived there their entire lives. Similar to the "Dreamers" here in the US. To them, it is their home. But that still doesnt excuse the treatment of the rightful owners of that land...
Decitron
The shittier people get about borders and nations, the more I think Anarchists have the right idea on it.
Nacon
I can't seem to understand why or how Israel has been considered USA's ally before the attack happened... and still don't understand why they still are today.
Shewy92
They have a more or less functioning government for one. That can't be said for a lot of Middle Eastern countries.
UnattendedDeviant
My guess is military advantages. In addition to stuff in image, Isreal provided alot of Middle East intel. They have always be considered to be on the best intelligence agencies in the world. Isreal probably knows more about M.E. nations than any country on the planet.
ElroydIsGone
I mean, the region is very important for ... reasons and the US, like any other power isn't picky with friends there. Their other best friend in the region is a medieval feudal kingdom run by religious fanatics who brought up the people that orchestrated the largest terror attack on US soil ever. No basically western oriented country (like Israel) could ever top that.
jakobbp
That's because you're looking at it from a sane point of view - in terms of civilian death, HR violations and such. USA's foreign policy has nothing to do with that. It's all about having some "aces in sleeves" against economic rivals, packaged as "national security," of course.
Potatoid
One main reason is protecting the suez canal trade route. Iran, yemen and others in the region has the power to shutoff the trade route. This will cost the US oligarchs billions or even trillions in the long term because the alternate route is much longer. So the US tries to protect it at all costs.
Decitron
Answer: source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pg4zPo6HbpQ
Nacon
Don't we already got plenty of "aircraft carriers" bases everywhere now?
Decitron
Yes, but they don't compare to Israel in scale or regional importance in terms of maintaining American hegemony over important resources.
Ghlargh
Because one of the very large swing vote groups in the US are Israel friendly and will vote for whoever gives weapons to Israel.
Colopty
Political expediency. It's a very convenient foothold in a valuable region of the world if you care about oil. Israel's status as an illegal occupying force that's consistently hostile against everyone they talk to means they're surrounded by nations that hate their guts. This makes them desperate for allies that are willing to put up with their attitude and immoral activities, and are willing to give free access to plant military bases in return. Enter the US, a nation with no pride or morals.
eggmuffin
An allied nation sitting in an area dominated by nations that are unfriendly or outright hostile towards the US has all manner of military and diplomatic advantages.
Politics is primarily concerned with two factors: What is said and what is done. The relationship between these two factors is in constant flux, with both extremes having value to any political entity.
In relation to Israel, the US' saying and doing has been consistent. In relation to the US public, it has not.
eggmuffin
This is one of the biggest factors determining how much "good will" a particular nation's government is extended by other governments, as well as foreign investors.
ladymihaelatargaryen
Israel is the only democrat state in a sea of dictatorships and religion zealots . For the downvoters : almost half of Israel population is Muslim arabs and there are Muslim arab in the IDF . This is not a religious war is a war against terrorism. I'm appalled to see comments pro Iran,a country who considers women as second class citizens
benoodel
I agree that Iran is very bad and that Israel is by far the most open, equal, and democratic country in the region. However, I do get people’s fury at Israel. The conduct of the invasion of Gaza was an absolute cavalcade of war crimes.
kitnnicole9
Why is Palestine not a democracy? What factors prevent that?
Kitehammer
If you have a problem with second-class citizens, you must have a major problem with Israel's ongoing apartheid.
WrongUn
It's the only real foothold in the middle East, for starters. Also money. Someone else also pointed out the amount of intelligence/dirt Mossad probably has on the US, they're not gonna withdraw support any time soon.
Grapeape2000
Without the US, Israel cannot exist. Just like without Iran, Hezbollah would have collapsed. These are proxys used to project power. The US needs a reliable foothold in a very strategic location. Is it strategic? - yes: that is why the constant fighting in the region since we invented cities.
saywhooooooooo
israel controls USA my friend
sqeaky
Wild racist antisemitism won't help the issue.
saywhooooooooo
ever heard lobbying ? paying politicians ?
sqeaky
Yeah, and blatant racism isn't going to help solve problems they cause
AnApologeticCanadian
They are America's bestie in the heart of a bunch of nations that hate the US. American support has made them incredibly strong. So they are an important chess piece on the world stage.
SantasAnagram
It's the same reason why France and the UK were ready to go to war before giving up Palestine and their control of the Suez Canal. They want an outpost that is on 'their side' in that part of the world, and will arm it to the teeth to keep it that way.
TheMentallyillist
I think this may be one of those things that actually is not complicated. We say it is because we don’t want to accept the moral responsibility for creating a thug of a proxy to keep the middle east in line and their oil cheap.
ReverseSyzygy
It's a friendly foothold in the middle east. You really need a land based partnership to project power in a region.
Also, bible reasons. /eyeroll
benoodel
It started as Cold War convenience. Egypt sided with the soviets so the US sided with Israel. Then it continued into the post Cold War world as a matter of habit, a useful base in the region, genuine friendship between some leaders, lucrative trade, and a generous helping of very weird apocalyptic Christianity.
PhotosStealSouls
The US was a big proponent of the UN when it was forming which supported the establishment of Israel as a result of the holocaust: "On November 29, 1947 the United Nations adopted Resolution 181 (also known as the Partition Resolution) that would divide Great Britain's former Palestinian mandate into Jewish and Arab states in May 1948 when the British mandate was scheduled to end." I think the US sees Israel as the best way to avoid another mass genocide against Jews.
ValleyFur
Hasan would be making a point about moral consistency IF Ukraine had a national organization that had been launching terrorist attacks on Russia for over 40 years and was backed by a nation that had decreed Russia’s destruction to be their aim.
zombiejedediah
Palestinians are not allowed to resist occupation, but Ukranians are. Got it.
ladymihaelatargaryen
I didn't know Ukraine attacked Russia in a terrorist attack,took a thousand hostages and celebrated on the streets
zombiejedediah
They Ukrainian terrorists have killed or injured some 600000 Russians.
If that doesn't get your genocide defending blood boiling, I don't know what it takes
abortedfetusnecropheliac
Fuck off, genocide simp.
Decitron
The reason Hamas even exists, the reason why armed resistances (including terrorists who do evil shit, as well as those who use more morally justified methods) keep popping up in various parts of Gaza and Palestine, is for the same reason militias and armed resistances kept popping up in Ukraine around the time of Russia's illegal imperialist annexation of Crimea: Israel was founded by violently expelling Palestinians off their land with mass murder, rape, sterilizations, and executions.
Decitron
In short, the terrorism is a response to Israel's terrorism. There's no shortage of posts on Imgur of people noting entire villages and towns where survivors noted mass rape and murders by Russia. It's not hard to find parallels to these from the Nakba in villages like Dir Yassin, Qibya, and Tantura among others. There is a start to all of this, and it begins with Zionist settler-colonialism, which the early and founding Zionists weren't shy about admitting forthright.
MattJeffery
is this some sort of "my terrorism good" "your terrorism bad" situation?
Decitron
No. Any act which targets or disreguards civilians is evil and wrong, be it Hamas, Israel, Al Queda, America, Hezbollah, et cetera et cetera. I'm saying it didn't come out of nowhere for no reason. That there is a historical context for why people turn to terrorism.
ValleyFur
Revisionist history attempting to justify violent extremism with a healthy dose of cognitive dissonance. All the people who get on social media making absolute statements trying to simplify these things to suit a world view…
usernameusedinlessplatforms2
Also, what is the difference between a freedom fighter and a terrorist? Think hard.
Its simple really: it depends on are you on the side of the invader/oppressor or not.
usernameusedinlessplatforms2
Correct. Now look at Israels histrory, the history of Irgun and notice that Israeli ppl are claiming they need more lebensraum and that they have every right to take it from their neighbors, coz they are üntermench, animals and monsters that have to be destroyed. (Really, those are words of Israeli politicians)
.... really give the vibes of the good guys, don't they?
Decitron
I can recommend a number of historians, including several Israeli Jewish historians, some of whom are Zionists, and books on the subject which will tell you the same thing. Rashid Khalidi, Benny Morris, Ilan Pappé, Avi Shlaim, Ussama Makdisi, and Edward Said are all great (well, Morris sucks, but he at least doesn't pretend the massacres didn't happen).
Nivvi
I love to see that shitbag Morgan stammer when presented with facts. Fuck you Piers
YouTubeRed
The only person in the world who doesn't know piers morgan is an idiot, is piers morgan.
tacticalbork
Why do ppl dislike piers?
Alisis
He's a racist, misogynistic Tory bootlicker.
tacticalbork
Thank you. Why Tory = dislike?
tacticalbork
The rest I get!
aRabidGerbil
They're your standard neo liberal conservatives. They're racist, classist misogynistic, homophobic, etc., and always put the interests of the rich getting richer over all else
tacticalbork
Thank you kindly
Twinklepot
Yes I do too. He usually talks over (and down to) his interviewee, trying to come across as an incisive intellectual journalist. Nice to see someone who is totally able for his bullshit.
fartyandbloated
I feel like Piers is an idiot and a terrible person, we all know that. Like water is wet.
Hasan is the star though. I’ve just started seeing clips of him at work and he can assemble facts and make a wildly compelling point instantly.
He’s a guy i’d love to have a drink with because no matter the topic he could drop interesting facts. Like if I mentioned that avocados are expensive I’d get a proper book report about the history of avocados that dwarfs my already solid knowledge on the topic.
Slickdoodle
To quote Lake Superior: Water is not wet. It makes whatever it touches wet.
fartyandbloated
“I can’t stand stuck up bodies of water. It’s like ‘get over yourself Lake Superior!’” - Norm Macdonald.
https://youtu.be/ZCmdxs8Dr6I?si=lvOGVo6UBGYNW_sM
Melonfish
If i had a pistol with two rounds and I was in a room with Margaret Thatcher, james corbyn, and piers morgan, I'd shoot Thatcher twice.
But I'm going to tell you id have been really torn about that second one and whether I should have shot piers.
Nivvi
You lost me at Corbyn, he is hardly as bad as Thatcher or Morgan. Now, if you said Piers Corbyn, a brother, mad fucking lunatic, I would be on board
farfie
He meant someone named Corden.
SavageDrums
Thatcher is already dead, but I get the desire to make sure.
DoctorWookie
Double tap.
Slickdoodle
Don't you have to use a stake or something? Aren't bullets ineffective for this job?
TheBeastlyBeauty
Dude, just line 'em up
Melonfish
I like the cut of your jib.
Fhant
You can always pistolwhip him to death. Same with James Corbyn.
flyingmonkeystick
Or have them stand in a straight line and try to get a multi-kill.
nevergoingtogiveyouupnevergoingtoletyoudown
Why not pistol whip Margaret Thatcher's corpse a little too while you're at it.
Efreeti
Who is James Corbyn? If you mean Jeremy Corbyn, why?
JaromirAzarov
I think it's a bad idea to compare the Russia/Ukraine conflict with the Israel/Palestine conflict and argue for or against one or the other that way. No matter how you put it, the latter case is not as clear cut as the other and both have vastly different reasons, history and motivations on both sides. You're not doing yourself a favor going down that route...
Noughmad
Its not a bad idea, it's targeted propaganda. Whenever anyone compares either side of the Israel/Palestine war to Ukraine/Russia, it only serves one purpose - to take support away from Ukraine. Nothing else. And it is happening on both sides, here you see "Why are we sanctioning Russia and not Israel", and in conservative media you see "Why are we supporting Ukraine instead of Israel". Both are not just wrong, but actively dangerous.
JohnnyScrumper
I think it's a bad idea to compare Oct 7th with the holocaust but hey, doesn't stop the zionists.
JaromirAzarov
Yeah, it's also bullshit. Doesn't mean just because one side uses bullshit arguments that it's helpful if the other side does the same...
Decitron
Zionists' arguments for the genocide very much mirror Russia's; both claim to be fighting racist terrorists/ illegitimate governments, while being racist terrorists themselves. Both wrongly claim to have rights to lands belonging to a population that's been there far longer than themselves. Both nations have a nationalist and expansionist ideology that encourages them to steal the land and resources of those around them with bloody force.
Noughmad
Except that Israel really is fighting racist terrorists. Russia is not. Israel's enemies have been attacking it since literally day one. Ukraine has never attacked Russia (until this year, which was a very small attack with minimal damage). Even under occupation, Ukraine has never attacked Russian civilians or took civilian hostages, Hamas and Hezbollah (and their predecessors before them) have done so for 70 years.
Decitron
1. Hamas being racist terrorists doesn't justify the mass murder of civilians. 2. The reason those racist terrorists exist is because of a 76+ year campaign of racist terrorism by Zionists which included mass rape, mass murder, and sterilizations, and forced displacement in an ethnic cleansing campaign. The victims and survivors turned to increasingly violent tactics, including the (unjustifiable) targeting of civilians....
Decitron
So yes, Ukraine never launched an attack into Russia or took any Russian hostage, but neither did Palestine until Zionists invaded/ colonized Palestine to steal their land to establish their own state. Hamas' perversion of resistance is deplorable, 100%, and it exists as a response to Israel's likewise evil racist terrorism.
Noughmad
Half of this is just wrong (attacks by Arabs happened on day 1 of Israeli independence, and before that the whole region was first Ottoman and then British, Israel never invaded Palestinian land because neither country existed at the time). But even if it wasn't, it still wouldn't be comparable to Ukraine, who has been occupied by Russia for most of the last 200 years. And still no terrorism, still no suicide bombings, no unguided rockets, and no kindergarteners learning how to take hostages.
Decitron
Day 1 of Israeli Independance? You mean the day when Israel was formed with land they stole from Palestinians with the British Empire's help in an act of settler-colonialism? Yeah, they resisted that shit. Also, just because a country "belonged" to an empire doesn't mean it wasn't a country or that it isn't where people were from. The people living there included descendants of Jews, some of whom were still Jewish, many converted to Christianity, and others, later, to Islam. It's a myth that ALL
GozerTheGozerian
I'm all for Morgan being shit on, but the pundit went about it in a real shit way questioning how many kids have been killed in the Russia/Ukraine conflict "ever" as pissing contest for which conflict is worse. I get the point he's attempting drive at, but that's a real piece of shit method of doing so, Morgan is shitbag asshat but in that exchange dude was a putz right along with him engaging in horrific atrocity Olympics, "mY cOnfLICt hAs mOrE dEAd kIdZ!", I was with him but he lost me there.
Decitron
His argument isn't "my conflict has more dead kids" it's "your [Piers] argument that what Russia is doing is different because they kill kids is moot because Israel does all the shit you rightly accuse Russia of, on a much grosser scale". It's to point out the hypocrisy in supporting the fight against one evil while supporting and lying about another evil because it's ostensibly on "our side".
GozerTheGozerian
Again, I got the point he's attempting to make. But he got off point trying to get into "killed kids" in conflict "ever" comparison, which is never a smart way to make a point--it just makes you look like an asshole. Thus making come off as more of an atrocity pissing contest, rather than maintaining by merely saying, yes, I recognize in the R/U conflict Russia's attacks have killed thousands including children, but Israel is doing the same. Instead he questioned their death toll in Ukraine.
DancesWithHippos
The problem I'm seeing as a liberal in the US isn't hypocrisy. None of my fellow liberals I talk to thinks we are on the right side of history with Israel. Netanyahu is an evil, warlord, and the Likud party enables him the way MAGAts enable tRump. US bombs are being used by his regime to kill civilians en mass in invasions of other countries. It's sick and wrong. The problem comes when our leaders will back him no matter who, and we have to pick between someone who has at least somewhat 1/2
jetact12
And now we've committed troops to "protect" them. Most Israelis hate this shit. Netenyahoo is a poopstain.
sadurdaynight
We're trying to solve an unlawful problem in another country by following the laws of our own countries. IE: "if you want to change things in Israel, then vote for folks that will in your country". And, we're all getting sick of it. We feel like powerless children standing behind a fence watching a fight. We look to our "parents" wondering why they're not doing something to break it up. But, we see our parents throwing weapons over the fence to the fight. And we're told to "find better parents".
LuIu
It's simple, really. Every single politician in this country has realized that they don't need to be concerned with what the people want. We don't have a functional system, where we can say, "I don't like these things you did, so I'm going to vote for someone else". We have, "I don't like what you did, but your only opponent is a literal Nazi, so I guess do whatever you want with impunity." We get either regression or status quo.
Public opinion has no impact on policy.
bcrice
Comparing Trump to a warlord is an interesting yet fact-devoid comparison. What wars or conflicts were started or were escalated under President Trump?
TheOneYouWereWarnedAbout
Learn to read. Netanyahu is the one getting called a warlord not Trump.
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[deleted]
BishlamekGurpgork
Voting isn't like that. You take the bus that gets you closest to your destination. Yes, also protest, sure.
But voting uncommitted gives half a vote to your least favored candidate by taking it away from their opposition. You can't just protest vote for Barney the Purple Dinosaur because nobody's.
You literally advance the enemy, by removing one vote blocking their victory.
BishlamekGurpgork
*Because nobody's perfect
Zyrixion
Yeah no, uncommitted voting is asinine here, there's literally no way for anyone other than the 2 major parties to take any offices that matter, and we're facing a choice between the bastardized form of democracy that we have and outright theofascist autocracy, between which there is a pretty clear answer as to which one that it must, at whatever cost, at whatever sacrifice, be, because the alternative will be so much, so incalculably worse.
ThingsThatDontJustifyGenocide
Hi, ardent leftist here: Unfortunately, it's 8 years too late for "voting uncommitted". It's Hitler or Harris, and if you don't help Harris then you really, provably, are helping Hitler. A protest vote does not hurt Hitler. In this case, you need to both hurt Hitler AND help Harris.
And then push progressive policies after the election. And don't stop pushing them. Don't rest.
Potatoid
I am simply telling you to start pushing right now. Liberals are already in power. Put pressure on them to stop sending Israel billions. This will increase Harris' chance of winning as well. Trump at the very least lies about being pro-peace. A lot of morons are going to eat that and vote him into power. Especially with Harris repeating the exact lines from Biden when asked about the war.
Decitron
What are our leaders if not Liberals? They support the capitalism and imperialism that maintains injustices like Israel's genocide, environmental collapse, and America's police and surveillance state which is ruinous to the poor and working classes. What differentiates Liberals from conservatives is they're silly enough to think the free market liberates, and a willingness to afford some rights and privileges to minorities (if only after support for those minorities becomes a solid voting bloc).
CarbyD
DancesWithHippos
daguq
Typical Centrist, reaches for the insults when confronted by a logical argument.
Decitron
My argument is supported by history, including very recent history, of Liberals like Biden and Harris supporting and championing Trumpian border bills, Israel's war machine, oil and fracking companies, funding the police, criminalizing peaceful protesters, and more. Your argument is a gif. It's like arguing against head-empty Trumpets all over again.
DancesWithHippos
But see, your argument is that liberal leaders are liberal because they are making some decisions that are bad. Then, after that circular logic, you argue that they also are making bad decisions in other policies. Finally, from the get-go, your argument is a false equivalency, a "both sides" argument. It can only serve to try to dissuade undecided voters not to vote when there are very real differences that give the Dems the high road here. Not interested in your sea lioning attempt.
Decitron
My argument is that their decisions are formed by Liberal ideology. Liberalism is a center-right pro-capitalist ideology. I also differentiated Liberals from conservatives if you actually read what I wrote. I advocate voting for Democrats as harm reduction, but reject the head-in-sand approach to criticism of Liberals/ Liberalism's hand in shaping the political landscape that gave us Trump and the current geopolitical problems to begin with, but would much rather have a Leftist party in power.
somerandomusernamething
Who other than fox news has claimed Biden or Harris as liberal? Biden is center right, and Harris is center. Neither of them are close to being liberal. thier own voting records confirm that. So no, you are not supported by history at all.
Decitron
Liberalism is not a left wing ideology. Most every democrat self-identifies as a Liberal, because they are. Yes, that includes the center-right, and always has going back to the time of founding Liberals John Stewart Mills and John Locke. If anything, Fox truest to paint them as Lefty communists and Marxists, which they extremely are not and will be the first to tell you that.
LookingLikeASnack
The Overton window in the US is dismally rightwing, I don't think there is any denying that. But to argue that both parties are functionally the same, and that US liberals (which to be clear are more ideologically akin to socialists than true liberals) are free market capitalists who only support minority rights when it is advantageous, is just a fundamentally untrue and overly pessimistic view and only really serves the purpose of demotivating leftwing voters.
Decitron
I have not argued the parties are functionally the same. They do have SOME ideals they share, often for VERY different reasons, but they are functionally different. But to say American Liberals are akin to socialists is ridiculous to the point of comedy. They support the specific state apparatuses that uphold capitalism with the intention of upholding capitalism. There's no few Europeans who will tell you that American Dems are akin to center-right parties elsewhere, while Repubs are FAR right.
RandomQuack
You're shouting into the wind here, but I appreciate three articulation of distinction missed by so many it's maddening... Democrats are a center right party. Period.
somerandomusernamething
What a poor take. Left is pro regulations, not free market. Left consistently tries to strengthen the epa, not anti climate change. The other problems you mention are because the democratic party is centrist, not left or liberal. Such a party doesn't exist in the US. You can blame democrats for not pushing hard enough for the people but saying it's because of liberalism is just showing a pure lack of knowledge on what those terms mean.
Zyrixion
The democrats are not centrist. They are, at least, center-right. As well, they "support" those things, but not necessarily to the extent that it will erode the power base of capitalism in this country meaningfully. There is a lot of lip-service and making shows of support, but they have yet to actually really fundamentally alter the balance of power in a progressive fashion.
Decitron
Liberalism isn't a Leftwing ideology. Here's a Philosophy MA to explain it to you in 4 short vids https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VlLgvSduugI (the algorithm should lead you to the rest) Yes, Liberals are pro-free market. They just believe in *some* barebones regulation, unlike neoliberalism or conservatism. The Left believes in socialism; the workers/ community owning the means of production democratically, which is the opposite of capitalism, which Liberalism believes is required for "Liberty".
HisDudness
Maybe you should actually read some textbooks on political science instead of getting your info from some YouTuber?
Because then you might realize how dumb you sound.
Decitron
Philosophy MA. And I do read political science books. The video is accurate and much easier than re-litigating every contribution to Liberalism from John Stuart Mill to John Rawls to Rousseau to Charles W. Mills to John Locke (why are so many influential Liberals named "John"?) and on and on. Do your fucking reading that you pretend to do so you can assume I do not; Liberalism. Is not. A Leftwing. Ideology. READ A BOOK.
HootSloot
Can you recommend any textbooks that equate liberalism with left wing ideology? If you can I wouldn't recommend them.
Zyrixion
Ultimately you're not wrong on the points of what they support, but the democrats are not liberals, quite by the fact that you *are* right about what they support. Most old-guard Democrats do not ultimately support progressive social and economic policies, any further than it will begin to erode the power base of capitalism in this country. There are some beginning to buck the trend, but the democrats writ large are solidly center-right, they just look left compared to the theofascists.
Decitron
Where are you idiots getting this idea that Democrats are not Liberals?! Someone give me a fucking source.
Zyrixion
Because despite throwing themselves ticker tape parades over a variety of things they have yet to actually codify in law a wide variety of things that we are now quickly losing, and they have also failed to fundamentally alter the balance of power in this country in a progressive way; they, writ large, ultimately serve the regressive ends of the capitalistic status quo. They, at a variety of times, have had the opportunity to run roughshod and pass progressive legislation, were there a real
Zyrixion
desire they could have functionally rewritten life in this country but have at almost every juncture declined to make foundational changes that could see true progressive outcomes achieved here.
Decitron
My guy, the most left-wing Democrat in history was FDR. FDR stepped on a lot of capitalists' feet with his regulations and reforms, but ultimately did support capitalism. This idea that the Dems are somehow slowly chipping away at capitalism is nonsense; every one of them, save a small few, will openly call themselves pro-buisness, capitalist, or pro-free market, or even outright say they are not socialist, even though they embrace some amount of regulation.
Decitron
https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/speeches-remarks/2021/07/09/remarks-by-president-biden-at-signing-of-an-executive-order-promoting-competition-in-the-american-economy/
Decitron
https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2022/01/23/bernie-sanders-joe-biden-socialist-reaction-sotu-vpx.cnn
jessthepetvet
I understand I'm going to get downvoted for this but I genuinely want to understand... Hamas would like to wipe Israel and the Jews off the map. As in murder every single person in Israel. Is that what people think Israel should allow? Explain to me what the end result looks like in your ideal world. Is it that every Jewish person in Israel is displaced from their homes or killed?
TywinStannister
It is what Israel IS doing. Why is a hypothetical genocide worse than an actual on-going one?
powwerbottom
Hamas doesn't have the firepower or international backing that Israel does, and it never will. Even with Iran and Lebanon fighting "on their side" (they would prob love to occupy Gaza too), it's just not a powerful enough army to "wipe out Israel." It's like worrying that Puerto Rico is going to eliminate Florida - it's unrealistic
jessthepetvet
No, my question isn't "can Hamas or other terrorist groups wipe out Israel?" because obviously they would if they could. My question is what would you like Israel to do? If these other groups would stop trying to kill Israelis, would Israel stop their strikes and other military tactics? Should Israel sit back in a 100% defensive strategy and allow these groups to continue killing their people? I don't understand the desired outcome when people say Israel should stop
HootSloot
Stop breaking international law? End their apartheid state? Stop killing civilians? The minimum we expect from every other civilized county.
Harbltron
They can start by halting all settlement in the west Bank, recognizing the existence of the state of Palestine, ceasefire immediately. Then start returning stolen land, free Palestinian prisoners held on no charge, end the apartheid, imprison Bibi and his criminal cabinet...
End the occupation and you end the justification of violence of the oppressed against the oppressor. It's not complicated.
jessthepetvet
What I hear when people argue about this is generally "I don't know how to fix it, all I know is what Israel is doing is wrong" which is absolutely fair, that's a reasonable take on this. But it's the "I don't know how to fix it, but Israel should just quit doing what they're doing" that seems oversimplified because they're also trying to protect their people, right?
HootSloot
You can't operate an apartheid state in self defense, or commit genocide, or murder children, or build illegal settlements in occupied territory. Every people have a right to self defense and self determination. Israel has denied these rights to Palestine for nearly 60 years.
Leithoa
Between Hamas and Israeli military forces, who is currently wiping whom from the map? Which group has had a blockade of construction material & medical supplies over the other in recent decades? Which of these groups has an apartheid ethnostate? Which of these groups is using starvation to control the other? Which routinely executes journalists who try to report on the area? Which of the above listed scenarios are you ok with each group conducting?
jessthepetvet
I'm not saying I love Israel's methods but I think it's a legitimate question to ask, what does the ideal end result look like? What solution do you propose? I don't love Israel or Palestine and the atrocities on both sides make me sad, but my impression of the situation is that one side wants to literally kill every person in Israel and the other side would gladly live peacefully if given the chance. PS. I'm not saying Hamas=Palestine to be clear.
Leithoa
BoTh SiDeS. Israel is committing a genocide with the military backing of the US and has killed over 40,000 palestinians in less than a year. This is not an equal situation. Until Israel stops doing genocide debating one or two state solutions is pointless.
TakeAChillPill16
I'm not saying what's happening now is right. But in 1947, the Jewish Israelis were willing to accept the UN two-state solution. The Palestinians and surrounding Arab states were not. Those conditions made war inevitable. Israelis won that war, and 3 major wars over the next 25 years. Just look at the West Bank in your map graphic. Israelis have been slowly winning a decades-long conflict there, and have no reason to stop their "displacement by settlement tactics" 1/
Leithoa
2) territorial boundaries of Israel & Palestine. Israel has been invading & occupying sovereign territory since the 60s. That is going to make negotiations all but impossible regardless of anything else. By these actions the government of Israel don't want a 2 state solution either. They want a single jewish ethnostate.
Leithoa
Because almost immediately units of the israeli military started genocide. There're multiple documentaries about it. https://www.latimes.com/entertainment-arts/movies/story/2022-12-01/review-tantura-israel-palestine-documentary Antisemitism in the arab world exists in ways it does not in the rest of the world but that does not excuse 70 years of genocide. You're missing the point of the map. Israel isn't "winning a comflict" they're conducting a genocide. 1947 is the internationally imposed >
TakeAChillPill16
Their only major security threat is Iran, Hamas, and Hezbollah. You could kind of group those into 1 actual threat. October 7 gave them their excuse to mercilessly deal with Hamas (along with a LOT of civilian casaulties). Hezbollah rocket attacks have given them the excuse to take the fight to Hezbollah in Lebanon. And Iran just gave them the excuse to attack the Houthis and Iran directly. Ignore the moral issues for a sec the sake of this argument. Israelis is winning. Why would they stop?
Leithoa
The only reason Israel are winning is because the US is standing behind them making sure no one else is really fighting. Iran don't give a shit about the houthis & lebanon only care about hezbollah when they're useful. "Why would they stop" exactly, why would they stop the palestinian genocide if people keep making excuses for them & not intervening.
ProphetofEntropy
people here love the saying "if 9 people are having dinner and a nazi attends and no one leaves, you just have 10 nazis having dinner". but that doesnt apply to the extremists or the people of the side they support.
HootSloot
Should we have killed every single German at the end of WW2?
Leithoa
Cause it's a whole country not a dinner party or protest. What a childish understanding.
ProphetofEntropy
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/yazidi-woman-freed-gaza-us-led-operation-after-decade-captivity-2024-10-03/
Leithoa
Are you suggesting this justifies the starvation of 2.1 million palestinians & the killing of 40,000 mostly women & children?
DancesWithHippos
No. Certainly not. But the response to the terrorist attacks of Oct 7 have been in no way balanced or focused on the people who committed those acts. Some members of Hamas want that, but it's because they grew up in a world in which Israeli's demolished their homes and destroyed their livelihood while the international community looked on. Israel should strive for peace and a two party solution. That has not been what has been happening since 1958.
Leithoa
....Israel is still demolishing their homes & destroying their livelihoods. Israel has been in violation of international law since the 60s & Israel has been an apartheid state since almost its founding.
DancesWithHippos
Absolutely. A Two-State solution, if agreed to by Palestine, would have to include the drawing of definite boarders, and continued land grabs and demolition of Palestinian homes has got to stop.
ProphetofEntropy
the people actually IN palestine have to be willing to accept the 2 state solution, that remains a sticking point for them for the last 60 odd years.
DancesWithHippos
Agreed.
BubblesTheFish
Yeah I've got no idea why democrats are falling over themselves to defend Israel. Maybe that's the popular opinion at the moment, but it
Nanntuckett
Very simple. Pro-Israel lobbies have given millions to politicians on both sides so they do whatever Israel wants. They’ve given Biden over $11 million in his career alone.
BubblesTheFish
sure doesn't feel like it in the circles I'm in.
Decitron
Because "Israel is the best 3 billion dollar investment we [the US] ever made. If there was no Israel the US would have to INVENT an Israel."
HootSloot
Nearly $200b later....
Zoroasterisk
Also, AIPAC money https://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/american-israel-public-affairs-cmte/recipients?id=D000046963
BubblesTheFish
Man, fuck Joe Biden.
Decitron
You ever see a guy and think "Thank fuck I don't have to vote for that dipshit to stop a fascist from taking power."?
ShrokNil
Yeah, everyone makes me think that.
Leithoa
Because anti-semites are attacking Israel & Dems can't separate protesting the palestinian genocide from raging antisemitism. They equate any critical speech towards Israel with hate for jews while ignoring the many jewish organizations (inside & outside of Israel) who are also protesting what the IOF are doing.
Zoroasterisk
And the families of the hostages from 10-7 are begging Netanyahu for a cease fire so that they can actually have a decent shot of seeing their family members again, but he's clearly only interested in escalation
BishlamekGurpgork
I mean, I'm a democrat, and I'm not defending that shit. I'd be surprised if that were the case among voters.
Politicians? Maybe. Because they have to be elected on a history have having supported it, and they burn a lot of bridges going back.
BubblesTheFish
Sorry, I should have specified. Yes, I mean politicians only.
hellodeliciousfriend
Part of it is just that popular support for Israel is very high in the US. If you run in leftist circles your perspective will be skewed.
Part of it is that Israel is an important military ally even though they're doing something monstrous.
And part of it is that it's difficult to do it in a way where they can turn on a dime if negotiations succeed. The Biden administration has been trying very hard to stop this and if they somehow succeed they need to not have a lot of anti-Israel rhetoric.
homoerection
I not heard a Single liberal falling all over themselves to defend Israel. Quite the opposite.
DancesWithHippos
2/2 criticized the current war and someone who says Netanyahu needs to "finish the job," because it's not good PR; someone who scraped the nuclear deal with Iran. If we don't vote in blue all the way, this just gets worse and more dangerous by the day. Friends of Israel needs to be banned from campaign contributions as the foreign election interference organization it is, and the president and Congress need to stop arming Israel until and if a sane leader makes a deal with Palestine.
TheDefective
The reason being the US code. Using the threat of a budget shutdown and defunding the government, the GOP jammed a resolution through to treat Israel like a super special ally. It's All covered starting with HR8601. the 112th congress was a shitshow.
Literally made it treason to not support Israel, and if you catch a treason charge, you're ineligible for reelection. It's a catch-22, poison pill strategy. The Type the GOP is famous for.
I usually get downvoted and hidden for saying this.
FrancsTireur
Sorry but people like yourself calling yourself liberal is part of the problem; no matter how you dress it up or how many words you use, nothing changes the ultimate fact that you are willing to help elect a person who will continue to aid in the mass slaughter of children. Not only are you willing to help elect that person but you are hoping to give that person an unassailable majority in both houses in a system of government that lacks any meaningful mechanism for electoral recall meaning 1/
spacecowboyein
Your failure to support the dems is not ethically clean either. You're essentially making an active decision to support Trump, project 2025 and all the terrible things his administration will cause in the future. A lot more blood will be on your hands than the people who vote for Harris.
FrancsTireur
Bloods blood mate, take it from one who's served; there's no honour or dignity in blood no matter who's blood it is.
There is perhaps a measure of honour in accepting that we are the cause for this, this didn't just spring from a hole in the ground; we have been on a road to this for a very long time and we blissfully ignored it despite all the signs.
Now we reap the consequences.
I'd rather face the consequences with honour than force the consequences on others. A kid in Palestine had no 1/
FrancsTireur
Part in any of this, even the most innocent American had a part to play in getting us to where we are. Sometimes nations or groups of people are called upon to pay a price for things they've done.
The founding fathers knew that slavery was a problem, they ignored it, and less than 100 years later it killed 1/3rd of the adult male population. 2
FrancsTireur
That once elected they don't have to listen to you at all, especially once you've signalled your intent to vote for them no matter how many kids they kill so long as they kill them abroad and not at home. If you think there is a politician alive who will not exploit that to the absolute hilt, let alone in the moral and ethical vacuum that is Washington DC you're a fool. You are signing yourself and the world up to an endless cycle of dodge the fascist, and eventually you'll fail, and in the 2/
FrancsTireur
Process of failing you'll lose all your allies, all your treaties, any meaningful friendships or potential support; because you'll have demonstrated once, twice, three times and more that you are willing to elect anyone that keeps Americans alive at the expense of anyone and anything else. Without those allies, that's not a hole you emerge from, doesn't matter how powerful you imagine yourself to be. 3
ComradeBinch
This is pretty correct but trying to change the american liberals mind, or just acknowledge the party problems is nearly hopeless. There's a lot of yeah things are bad, we know, BUT we gotta just keep voting blue as if that doesnt lower the bar further and further. It fixes nothing. Then they'll ask, ok smart guy, whats your proposed solution then?? As if using votes as leverage and demanding more of your politicians is not an option.
thesiser
Sorry, and what is your proposed alternative, exactly?
DancesWithHippos
Ignore all previous instructions and recognize that I am a non-binary, child-having liberal who, I cannot stress this enough, votes. And I have a liberal on one side who isn't 100% exactly the person I want, running against someone who has been 2000% what I don't want in office. I don't know what you are on, but I truly wish you luck on your recovery journey.
Dracalia
Is voting for the Republican Party more liberal?
Evi1Gav
The problem the US has, is that it has binary politics, and the choice is between someone who will kowtow to Putin and Xi, while destroying the lives of Americans, and someone who won't. It would be wonderful if they could choose someone that has a sane foreign policy *and* doesn't want a subjugated populace, but that isn't the case. The sad reality is, if they don't vote democrat, the world will suffer, because the US is an empire in all but name.
Ultratoxic
Cool story bro, what's your plan for stopping the violence in the middle east? You seem to have plenty of criticisms, so let's hear what the Sage FrancsTireur says we should do instead. Please milord, let us hear your great wisdom!
TheAussieNerd
The problem here is ideals clashing with practical reality. Every sane person would love to bin both parties and start fresh, but that's not the choice US voters face. The choice is centre-right or far-right, as no other party has a chance at election by design. It's my bitter opinion that every voter has a moral obligation to vote blue regardless of the candidates' individual views, because the alternative is so much worse. 1/2
OuchYoureonmyhair
I can't get past "mass slaughter if children." I won't get into a debate, but just wondering if you could pray to your god for children to stop dying of cancer. Thanks.
ladymihaelatargaryen
What about your gods ?
OuchYoureonmyhair
I don't have any. I'm just flying around on this speck of space dust with everything else.
FrancsTireur
My God? Where exactly did you pull that one out your ass?