TheWhiteBarry
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Solar + Batteries = Freedom from coal, gas, and the power company.
Edit: this blew up way more than I expected, thanks everyone.
To answer a few common questions:
Yes we still pay a basic connection fee, but we export enough excess solar to offset the cost.
No this is not currently a cost savings for us, but the economics of it are incredibly complicated. You'd need to consider current and future cost of electricity from the grid, how long the panels/battery will be in service for, inflation, interest on the loan, tax benefits, etc...
ItSeemsYouHaveSufferedaTerribleFate
Bad thing about living in coastal Washington... Never enough sunlight for panels!
thatwoodguy
My wife and I are moving at the end of the year to an area that has more sunlight than where we are here. Even where we are in Squamish it's gotten pleasingly hot during the Summers and we've needed air conditioning. I'm considering an electric vehicle some of the money we have left over as well as solar panels.
gonetothebirds
made so much solar energy that my gas for last June and July was free
57rescraft9
A lease or outright purchase agreement ? If it's a lease, good luck selling your home. Prospective buyers don't like taking over someone elses contract. Sales do happen, but price and time on the market are definitely affected.
littlecoatfatguy
HughGRecti0n
Got solar a year ago & it’s been glorious not having an electric bill.
VindictiveBathToaster
Except in Florida where it is now a law to Have your home connected to the power grid, and even if you have solar that produces more energy than you can use, there’s still a minimum bill of $30/mo. If you go off grid and/or don’t pay, the state can deem your house to be in an unlivable condition and condemn it, kicking you out, even if you own the property.
TheAziz
Give em time, the gov will figure out how to tax it
Kinseeker69
They should be paying YOU
Kompi
This is genuinely awesome stuff. I hope this becomes more and more widespread.
BladeTurMoiL
Did the same a year ago. 15$ bill + 225$ bill for solar panel loan vs 270$ + electric bill was a no brainer. And now i have credits on my taxes to last a few years for maximum returns as a bonus. Electric is only going up, so there were literally no down sides.
eiger3970
Congrats! Feels the same driving EVs for free!
KairiRatten
And then you have Czech republic, who tried to pass a bill that says "if you buy solar, and would have used 1200 czk worth of solar energy that month, and didn't pay the electric bill, you have to pay the state 800 czk as a tax from lost electric company revenue"....
Numbers are made up I have no clue what amounts were talked about. Dunno if it passed, but I'm afraid yes.
billiebitkiller
We've been trying to do solar for years (we live in a place where the sun is trying to kill us anyway) but all the stuff we can find is so *expensive*. Any tips/advice is welcome esp since no one will work on a manufactured home & our old place was so bad we couldn't wait for a stick built (even assuming we could have afforded it).
TheWhiteBarry
All I can really say is each locality is different. Batteries at this point in time are more of a cost than a savings really. If you're looking to save money in most areas the answer is just solar, but that really depends on your local price per kWh and most importantly whether you can sell back the excess to the grid. If that isn't in place, you're never going to see a cost benefit. Hope this was helpful and good luck
willjak
Nice! It’s a little different for us because we’re in a campervan (full time) but also same ☺️ about 3 years of self produced power. I calculated how much we would have spent on rent and bills if we’d have stayed renting and it was over £30k!
TheWhiteBarry
Oh hell yeah Batman that's amazing
WubBug
We're having our solar installed tomorrow! So excited! After about 5 years, the financing payment will be cheaper than a regular electric bill, when factoring in the average price increase of electricity per year in our area (15% per year). In the interim, we'll be overproducing during peak seasons enough to offset the costs during winter... That isn't even factoring in the tax rebates to follow. It's definitely worth it if you can get a good interest rate on the financing!
DefundIsraelTheGenocidalNation
What @OP is not telling you is the fact that it will take them a minimum of 10+ years to payoff the upfront cost of the solar. At best 5+ years if he splurges on electricity usage: Battery car, replaces gas range with electric, gas water heater for electric, and heat pump instead of gas furnace. All of which require loads of money down.
RulesOfImgur
Are you completely disconnected or are you still hooked to the grid?
And do you sell power back to the grid or no?
Might be worth looking into as peak hours are very expensive so you could sell back then and take the same amount back at night at turn a profit.
RevengeIsIceCream
They do apparently, which is why they get down to $0, it covers the remaining fees.
akphil6691
When I was approached for Solar in Phx, AZ in 2022.. the “buyback rate” was a fixed price (I believe 9.2 cents / KW) which is below market price … so when you need “help” from the grid (i.e. air conditioning at 110deg) you buy back the power you sold them for 9.2 at peak rates (20+ cents / kw) … house was 2400sq ft with a pool .. so not enough roof space to gen enough for peak power draw in the summer
HollerinAtTheVoid
As someone who has worked in energy for a long time, we're finally nearing the tech/economic inflection point where it's financially more beneficial for large end-users to create their own green generation or form a green PPA (power purchase agreement). From what I've seen, home solar isn't quite there yet for most markets but it's getting closer. Watch out though because some solar installers will wildly skew future energy cost projections to make their numbers look way better than they are.
sadurdaynight
God damn, these mods better start cracking down on this porn on here! You're giving me an erection! (seriously, though, I've been wanting to do my own solar array for a while. Apartment living makes it a bit difficult).
oldguyexlurker
Thanks for the info and the candid statement about it not being a cost savings (yet). Until the monthly cost of going green is brought down to make it a better economic choice than the grid, most of us will be stuck with the grid. Same with electric vehicles. Strip out the non-essentials and luxury crap. Give us a shot at an non-prototype-style electric vehicle with a decent range at under the cost of a combustion-engine vehicle and we ALL go electric. Infrastructure will meet us there.
TheWhiteBarry
Regarding EVs, we're a lot closer than people realize. In certain localities in the US right now you can get a brand new model 3 for under 30K. Factor in lack of gas and maintenance and you're already wayyyyy ahead.
The main issue at this point I think is lack of education on the subject and a very poor performance from legacy auto. The only great EVs out there today come from pure EV companies. People who want to wait for a good legacy auto EV are gonna be waiting a long time.
oldguyexlurker
Yeah. But you could strip out the damned IPAD controller, Internet access, app controls of everything from the effing seat warmers to the side mirrors (not exaggerating, about burned my ass off in Toronto driving down the freeway trying to figure out how to turn the damned seat off) put in a "dumb" controller for acceleration and braking, put in a regular radio for crying out loud. For the money and range, I'd go back to 'proletarian, hand-crank, windows...
IUsedToHaveUsernameOnce
I'm jealous. Would love this but rentals don't have solar panels :c
kickahippie
I lived in a rental that had a 10kw system for a 900sqft apt. Landlord was a business prof at OSU. OR was running a home solar incentive program where they pay you 0.32/kW produced and USED. So if you didn't use it you don't get paid. So around Nov-Dec he would start tracking all the built up kWs and have us run our heat full blast with the windows open for weeks. It was a very stupid program, b/c it paid way too well to not be abused. He actually drove up to Salem twice to speak...
kickahippie
To the state legislature about why it was such an over generous program that was going to be abused. Paid too well, couldn't split systems between multiple units of a multi, only paid if used incentivized people to just burn excess. They told him to pound sand and pushed ahead, at which point he figured he might as well get a slice. I should have used it all to mine bitcoin in 2014, could be telling this story from my private yacht.
IUsedToHaveUsernameOnce
Fuck, yeah. Oh well. At least you didn't turn into a crypto bro so it's still a net positive :D
kwent86
I stayed at a rental for 2 years that had panels. The owner was an old hippie. He also ran over bowed out 2x4 planks in his spare time (with his prius) to straighten them out. not kidding.
IUsedToHaveUsernameOnce
That's awesome, mate. I'm surprised rentals in QLD don't have panels. Some do, but it's not super common. I wish I could score one that does.
AnIPAisMyFavorite
You may have oversized your system.
TheWhiteBarry
Yes it's about 10% oversized by design. I wanted full offset for my usage and didn't want to cut it too close.
AnIPAisMyFavorite
After a bit more reading of the comments, I see you're still heating with gas. You'll likely be paying a bit (or drawing from your credits) during the winter months. That would be about right sized as it isn't worth selling to your power company. Zeroing out after a full calendar year is ideal.
TheWhiteBarry
Yeah we are pretty much zeroed out. IDK if you found that comment with my latest bill but you can see there's just a balance of -$1 and change lol. It obviously differs year to year too. The first year we had it we didn't quite get all the way through winter. Paid like 1 bill for 60 bucks or something. This year we just happened to make it through pretty much perfectly. Production is all uphill from here til autumn.
ILikeRespondingWithWillSmithGifs
Great fucking Job. I had to pay back the electric company to get my mom from being sent to collection. I paid $263 a week for 6 weeks to help her catch up and be a week ahead. Her ex husband left her 3 months behind (on all bills) and I (her son) had to step in and put her a month ahead. She honestly never told me thank you. I hate my family.
Calicious
I just want to know three things - what is your monthly solar system repayment bill, when does your loan end, and how long until you break even?
IDontCareAtAllButIShould
You must be totally disconnected as half of my electric bill has noting to do with electricity use.
ManOfKent1967
You live in the UK with standing charges? That literally makes up half of our energy bills.
TheWhiteBarry
Not sure I follow? You mean paying high base rates just to be connected to the grid? We do still have to pay the basic connection fee, but we export enough excess solar to offset the cost and end up with net zero bills.
PeeterGrant
I bought a solar system 10 years ago and powered the house, 2 cars and a spa, and still got a small check back at the end of the year. Then, they changed the rates and peak time of use 3 years ago and I now have to pay about $2K in one lump sum at the end of the year. I still produce the same amount of power, I just get less for it, and that sucks. Considering a battery system but I don't know if that will make sense from a savings standpoint.
MinimumContributor
Look into it, but I’m not sure exactly how it works. One of the companies says they can control your battery to use its stored power during peak time charges
UniqueUsername87692
I bought a solar system a few years ago and I seem to have a bit of an infestation on the third planet out...
VibratingNipples
Just cut off the power lines and power your own house for free?
desl14
you may be worried about power outtage in winter when your batteries may be empty after 3 days of cloudy weather
TheWhiteBarry
At today's prices I don't think it really is a cost savings. The main drivers for us doing it were emergency power outage coverage and reducing grid dependence. The cost of batteries continues to plummet year over year though. I expect within 5-10 years it'll become financially beneficial for the average consumer.
To put it in perspective, I'm paying off a 10 year loan for the system at ~$330 a month. But after that, I get the rest of the life of the system for free. Hard to truly judge overall
hyperchondriac
How much did the rooftop solar and batteries affect your homeowner insurance policy? Cause, you know, battery fires and roof leaks.
invenio
If you factor in oppertunity cost, like just throwing it into and S&P500 index fund over the same time frame, I doubt you would come ahead. But like you said, it's more than just the cost savings.
SavageDrums
Canada green energy program? I got that as well, sweet 0% loans!
TheWhiteBarry
Nope not Canadian but got a decent rate, 4%
PeeterGrant
Based on the price I paid in 2014, my system probably paid for itself about 2 times over in the first 7 years so I'm not complaining. It's that the power company doesn't pay me for producing energy the same amount that makes me mad.
squishybaker
yeah, but how much did the solar and batteries cost.
LordHosk
I just got an estimate and with panels and batteries with current federal incentives it would cost ~$25,000
thats with panels that would cover about half my roof on a 2100 Sqft home, and they estimate it would eliminate 80-90% of our electrical use of ~180/month.
UffDaDan
My 25 panel system cost 30k without battery backup. With batteries I'm guessing $50k cash cost. But federal tax credit gives you 30% of that which is significant
porphyre1e00
Is it a tax credit or a deduction?
UffDaDan
Credit. For my credit of 10k, as long as I pay 10k+ in federal taxes throughout the year, I could get that directly refunded if all else is balanced. If you only pay 8k, then 2k credit will rollover to the next tax year
TinyLiehon
Probably 10k. An investment for sure but something that can be recouped within a decade. Then you get 2 more decades of energy production from the panels.
BisAndThighHighs
OP said in another comment it's a 10 year loan at $330 a month, so $39,600 before adding interest etc.
TehBox0rz
If it’s the Canada greener homes loan then it’s interest free for ten years
akphil6691
And that was 10yrs ago … the cost of solar (and everything else) has gone up.
TinyLiehon
Solar is the cheapest form of electricity generation (even despite fossil fuel still receiving subsidies)
UffDaDan
My panels alone are 30k and a battery backup itself is >10k so way underestimated
TinyLiehon
How many panels did you place? My figure was for 14 panels + battery (literally what two suppliers have offered)
UffDaDan
25 panels (10.25kW DC) to give ~110-130% offset of a 3300 sqft house. We figured go big on offset since its exp to add a couple later. MN has good buy-back rates and for suburbs without brown outs, batteries were pretty consistently not recommended unless we got an EV, but even then 4 companies said the battery tach can get better.
UffDaDan
I'll also say ignore the offset value, if you can add a couple more panels to be confident of >100% even with future increase usage like if you grow a family, do that. I had many companies offer the same system size but their offset % were all slightly different given estimating shade/snow/etc which doesn;t matter. # of panels is the same offset % in realist whoever the vendor is
sambaah05
Very cool. How long will the payback period be?
TheWhiteBarry
10 year loan in my case
Lulabel73
Loan?! What’s the interest rate on that?
crcinau
So you prepaid for 10 years of electricity.
Ulthirm
not necessarily, the total outcome cost of the solar could very well be cheaper than the monthly cost of electricity. In some cities that
Ulthirm
100% could be true. In the US at least, I'm not Canadian and can't speak for Canada's pricing.
DerpMeister
To be able to not have to pay for electricity for the next 20+ years.
crcinau
Current gen batteries will likely need replacing at 10-15 years if cycled once per day - and sticking between 20-80% state of charge. Sadly, that makes the ROI on batteries to be about the same as their lifetime right now...
Frogblender
Maybe? Big ask that gear stays good for 20 years especially batteries.
TinyLiehon
Shopping around for solar panels atm. Most suppliers give 25 to 30 year warranties with a guarantee that after 30 years the panels will still produce 85%+ of their original energy production
seakoos
@OP That's impressive. A link to the setup you have? Number of batteries? Inverter size? BTU capabilities for heating and cooling? Square footage?
terrasono
Do you guys have any recommendations? ID like to get a solar set up but dont want to get jipped.
Deathpunkin
BTU? Binford heaT Unit?
xpl0sion
6100!
But it‘s british thermal units
michaeloberg
signaturesolar.com for panels, jag35 for batteries, craigslist/FB marketplace for Enphase microinverters, YouTube for easy DIY tutorials for putting it all together.
It's not hard, and fairly inexpensive if you DIY.
feldemon
I know almost nothing on solar panels (decent with batteries and converters) but the link provided has a very large selection of panels. Is there a specific panel you'd recommend that I can start my calculations with?
michaeloberg
I'd just go by price, they are commodities. I do like the larger panels since they turn on earlier in the day and off later in the day (takes less light to activate them), and simplifies the design but anything over about 380W is a big panel essentially. Look for .25 cents a watt so about $100 a panel as a goal price.
feldemon
Thank you! Thats just the advice I needed
LjubljanaJeNajlepseMestoNaSvetu
BTU? Seriously? What is this, the 18 hundreds?
DoWGray
Idk why this is getting downvoted when it's not even the most understood non-SI unit of energy
IAmTheBadW01f
In the US? unfortunately, yeah. Some of us are working on it.
Dodel1976
Battery Tesla Units.
seakoos
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_thermal_unit
LjubljanaJeNajlepseMestoNaSvetu
The origins of the British Thermal Unit or the abbreviation Btu prove difficult to establish but it first starts to be mentioned in engineering publications during the very late 1800's.
bound4doom
And your point? Metric system was invented in 1795. You see someone say centimeters and you go "Centimeters? Seriously? What is this 1795?"
heyimjephph
Seriously? The Arabic numerals?
TheWhiteBarry
Went with Tesla solar panels + 2 Powerwalls - https://www.tesla.com/energy/design
Each Powerwall has an inverter capable of 5 kW sustained and 7 kW peak and they combine so I get 10 kW sustained and 14 kW peak. The solar panels are 13.6 kW peak and highest I've actually observed was about 12.5 kW. High inclination too - I'm in northern New England. Not exactly the poster area for solar production...
SQ footage is ~2200. Not sure abt BTUs but new as of 2022 central cooling / propane heat.
sevenfingers
Why would you go with propane when you're generating electrcity?
TheWhiteBarry
It was there already when we bought the house. Doesn't make sense to rip out a brand new fully functional system. We did opt to buy an electric dryer though even though there was no 220 outlet in the laundry room. Still pretty happy with that decision.
At some point when the appliances start to fail I'll be replacing the heat, hot water, and stove with electric versions.
seakoos
Very nice +1
NothingPrince
That's awdome. My battery is 5kw but I live in Aus so it doesn't last long at night with the air-conditioning.
livingonagiantfireball
I sent with 5kw solar panel last fall, i sti pay power but it cost me half it used to be and i dont think i wont pay power during summer.
kitterskills
What was the up front cost vs longterm gain and when do you get out of the red?
Sumdumguy42
Wait, how are you free from gas when you have propane heat?
TheWhiteBarry
I'm not (yet) completely free of gas in that sense. I do plan to replace the heat with electric/ heat pump at some point but it's brand new as of 2022 so that's a ways off. I was referring to the source of my electricity generation and driving an EV.
TK421isAFK
He steals barbecue tanks from his neighbors, swapping them out with empties so they don't notice. Once a year, he gets his kids together and hits up an RV lot for a couple dozen tanks, which last them most of winter.
DiarmuidRyan
Very interesting. I live in Ireland where average temp and sun light etc would not be great in winter time. What are the temperatures like where you are?
TheWhiteBarry
Northern New England 🥶 we rely on exporting excess production in summer to build up credits that take us through winter. We have it set up so that it fills the cars first, then the powerwalls, and sell the rest.
putcleverusernamehere
I see lots of kw ratings on batteries, but what about kw/h? How long can you pull 5kw?
TheWhiteBarry
13.5 kWh so if pulling exactly 5 kw constantly it would last a little over 2.5 hours. More realistic baseline for our house is under 1 kW. With 2 powerwalls we easily get a full day of backup power, and as long as the sun keeps rising we get to refill the batteries every day.
https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/pdfs/powerwall/Powerwall%202_AC_Datasheet_en_northamerica.pdf
putcleverusernamehere
You have a standby genset just in case?
TheWhiteBarry
Yeah so in general I keep it set to reserve 20% for emergency backup. The system is really smart though, any time there's a storm warning it automatically charges up to 100% whether through solar or the grid.
DaveFondale
What was the total cost of all of this and what was your avarage power bill before getting the solar panels?
Warmblood
Different size, different time, but I got a Tesla 8.1 kW system (panels, no battery) for around $16k before rebates, $11k after. Power bill went from around $80 avg monthly to about $10 avg monthly after net metering.
meauho
We got 32 panes & 3 powerwalls with a monthly payment of $285 (total price $50k) Our average electric bill in Texas was $390/mo for 4200sq'. Now our electric bill averages $~25. During the time we have had our panels my brother's electric bill has increased 70%
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drizztx
Yup. The minute I saw "Tesla" I was like, ooof. Big OOF. Dude got suckered.
Pacaruru
Maybe, maybe not. I used to live in NY and my orang+Rockland bill was reliably well over 500 a month. Natural gas is expensive as heck.
budgetnoms
I pay ~half that for a 360 sq ft studio so not that big of stretch I'd think lol
meauho
We got 32 panes & 3 powerwalls with a monthly payment of $285 (total price $50k) Our average electric bill in Texas was $390/mo for 4200sq'. Now our electric bill averages $~25. During the time we have had our panels my brother's electric bill has increased 70%
ServerMonkeyKing
Don't know their interest rate so I can't figure out the actual principal of the loan (how much the setup actually costs up front) but that's just shy of $40K including interest at the end of the 10 years.
spiceass9000
Eh for a 2200sqft place that’s probably about the monthly cost of electricity. But they said they have an EV so I assume they charge at home also. Which means 0 for gas/ extra electricity to charge it
spiceass9000
Also it’s an investment as it increases home value and will be paid off eventually whereas a power bill never will be
Dragonfury5
I'm in Texas and my last light bill was close to$500
CaptAlbertAlexander
Cries in German paying 55 euros a month for just me
RevengeIsIceCream
uhm, 55euro is far less than $300?
AawesomeAardvaark
That's pretty good. I haven't had a bill that low in well over a decade. In the US.
TheWhiteBarry
Pretty accurate. Our power bills before were about 180-200 ish. It is a significant increase, but after the loan is paid off it's all gravy til the system starts to degrade. It's really hard to tell, but if I had to guess I am paying slightly more over the long run, unless grid power prices spike suddenly or the system keeps running flawlessly for another 10 years lol.
putcleverusernamehere
Had grid tied solar in AZ. Even before the utility monopoly eliminated net metering break even was ten years. I wish it wasn't so, but rooftop solar doesn't really make economic sense yet, given few ppl stay in a house long enough to even break even. Exactly the way utilities like it as rooftop is their only competition
DaveFondale
What you need to do is to take your monthly loan payments divide by the average amount of kWh per month you used, to find your new kWh price. Between jan 2022 and jan 2023, the average electricity price for US homes increased from 13.72 to 15.47 cents/kWh, this is a 12.76% increase in kWh price. Some back of the napkin math it only need increase to 22 cents/kWh for you to be paying less for the loan per kWh.
Arkkeri
Here (Finland) the solarpanels sold are given 25y warranty and for the production they promise 12y 92% and 30y 83% from the original values.
Heat is what kills them though.. Kinda ironic.